James J Jeffries vs Anthony Joshua

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Rich,

I think you are objective with good ability to reason. The examples of someone 190-210 pounds beating someone 240 pounds or larger are narrow.

Dempsey over an older and inactive Willard. Carrera vs whomever you pick, and Louis vs. a big, but not very skilled Abe Simon or Buddy Baer

I think its a given, that Jeffries was far better than the large men who fought from 1915-1950 ( Willard, Carrera, B Beat, A Simon . Do we agree? Hopefully so...

If we do, let's proceed. Today Jeffries would be 230-240, better trained, and could afford to be more active in a 12 round format.

What are the examples of guys 220-238 pound heavyweights, beating big skilled heavyweights as Joshua?

Let's examine some recent history.

1 ) Holyfield at 217 pounds via decision over Bowe 246 pounds. And Holyfield was even smaller and lighter than Jeffries was in general.

2 ) Oliver McCall at 231 pounds TKO over Lennox Lewis ( 238 pounds ) in 2 rounds.

3 ) Hasim Rahman at 238 pounds KO over Lennox Lewis ( 253 pounds )

4 ) Corrie Sanders at 225 pounds over Wlad Klitschko KO 2 ( 242 pounds )

5 ) Lamon Brewster 226 pounds over Wlad Klitschko ( 243 pounds )

What do all these upset wins have in common?

I'd say 4 of the 5 were punchers, and 3 of the 5 had top end durability. Jeffries just happens to be a mix of both, a puncher with top end durability. So why can't he beat someone like Joshua, who is not as proven as any of the upset men I listed, has a known shaky chin in amateurs, and seems to have some stamina related issues in the later rounds?

I think a topic like this deserves its own thread, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the above.

Thanks.

 

As I explained Corbett has two wins over 200lbs plus heavies one was a fat alcoholic who had not fought in 4 years the other was a fat bareknuckle fighter out of his depth with Queensbury rules.
As I explained I don't criticize Marciano for fighting small heavyweights he was one himself, he beat the best that was around and could do no more.
.As I explained Jeffries cannot be criticized for the fact that he was so much bigger than nearly all of his opponents . but it must be taken into consideration when he is being evaluated against those who came after.

I typed all this I my last reply couldn't you get some one to read it to you?

Johnson has the highest weight average for his title challengers of any heavyweight champion up to Joe Louis.
As a young super middleweight he was ko'd by Joe Choynski just about everyone knows this .As just about everyone knows he was described by George Siler as half starved when he fought Klondike.
According to the Chicago Tribune this was one of six bouts put on at the Howard Theatre by the Illinois Athletic Club. "...Johnson, a long rangy colored man from Springfield, looking something like Fitzsimmons in black, showed up well at the start, but weakened under the steady but ponderous attack of 'Klondike'..."


You can spend the rest of your life trying to discredit Johnson, it wont make a blind bit of difference to anyone here.

Just as your opinion of myself doesn't make the slightest difference to me. The only opinions of me that concern me are those of people I respect,and I have to tell you there is none I respect less on this forum than yourself.
I've read all the reports, seen all the photos , bought all the books,watched all the footage ,there is nothing you can teach me about this subject.
All you have ever accomplished,all you have ever done, is illustrate how blind prejudice can so warp a man's mind as to make his leisure time one long obsessive sojurn of hatred and manic bigotry.
If you were not such a poisonous human being I might feel some pity for you, but you are, and I don't.
So jog on, Jim Crow! Waste your own time.

 

I'm not discrediting Johnson in this thread, only your own bias!


Whatever Johnson does is okay in your mind, but you criticize others when Johnson himself had lots of problems with smaller / shorter men.

How is this objective, or fair and balanced? It isn't

Johnson had 23+ fights record when he was capped by Choysnki. Fact.
In 1909 in his absolute prime, any felt he was outboxed by a much smaller man in O'Brien according to some primary sources. Fact
In 1909, he also had the infamous 4 round EX TKO loss to Gunboat Smith, who was about 180 pounds.
And in 1909 again, he was knocked down by Ketchel, at 5'9" he was not very skilled.

Yet all we see from you is Jeffries and Marciano fought smaller men!!!!. True, but they knocked them out! And they beat a better class of smaller men by far!

You are a disgrace to the forum, and unable to intercept things objectively, that much is clear.

My only wish is the more objective-minded people see you ducking my questions and keep reading your vitriol replies as it shows a lack of knowledge, a lack of objectivity, a lack of resoning when your ar wrong, and your agenda.

Its compelte ownage Tony....you just might not be able to see it! And in some cases that's a-okay with me.

Ta!

 

The O Brien fight was a 6 rds no decision, Johnson did not train for it and entered the ring overweight.He was out partying the night before.Knowing O Brien had no chance of stopping him he just went through the motions his purse was guaranteed anyway. Jim jeffries said a clever smaller man could make a good showing over a shorter distance and he wasn't surprised O Brien lasted the 6 rounds. If you want to believe O Brien got the best of it WTF do I care?
You are an illiterate clown with the mental capacity of a ******ed chimp ,one who repeats lies ad nauseum, for example, Smith scored tko over Johnson. total sh*t! My dogs could formulate a better sentence than you!
I rarely find my animosity towards any poster lasting longer than a couple of posts, but I thoroughly and completely detest you.
You asked me to respond well now I have.
Now F*ck Off and bore someone else!

 

Now it's a 4 Round EXHIBITION with Gunboat Smith... It gets better and better every time he retells the story.

 

I said it was a 4 round EX match. It was a fight in the ring with gloves. And Johnson was knocked silly. There is nothing more needed to retell.

This is not a why didn't Johnson give Smith a title shot thread, its a laugh out loud at McVey's bias, double standards, and inability to see or admit when he's the wrong type of reply! And the best part is he's either too stupid or too stubborn to accept the fact that he's the king of double standards here. He often won't answer the truth when cornered. Instead, he gets angry, a problem he has had with multiple posters.

Yes--O'brien according to primary sources got the better of Johnson in their six round match when Johnson was in his prime and O'Brien near the end of his career. I have newspaper paper quotes if you like to see them.

 

He is amazing, lost in his own little universe of Planet Mendoza. As if anyone here gives him a moments credibility!

 

The Facts have no credibility with you! I can show that in one post. You duck replies when I point out your double standards like some embarrassed 6 year old. I now you on many topics.

You are a fraud and a disgrace. Now if you really mean it by saying, " You bore me " , I suggest you stop replying to this thread. But we both know your not wired correctly to do that.

 

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Excellent summary which I am afraid, will fall on stony ground.

 

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richdanahuff, post:

Here's my answer to your question and examples

Bowe was not in very good shape in that fight his best weight was 225-230 however Holyfield was an anomaly a super tough driven man with great skill and will power who used a professional trainer and modern techniques to put on quality weight to be able to deal with Bowes size and strength.

The rest of the fights were two big men though one was slightly bigger but where one got blitzed the size differential becomes negligible at a certain point hence the reason for the heavyweight class but keep in mind their has been discussion many times to create a Superheavyweight division due to the sheer size of the current crop the 6'3" guys are barely able to compete anymore. The 6'6" relatively unskilled heavyweights were what we had before the Klits era Lewis and Bowe started it but now we are seeing training methods and results where 6'6" men are much better in using their size like athletes and hence more dangerous to the 220lb heavyweight.

I was a fan of what Jeffries was for his time the biggest baddest boxer around and I had similar thoughts on Liston coming from the Marciano/Patterson era as a 215 big man but Liston did fight bigger men and proved his power and durability with larger men before that he did what a quality big man was supposed to do in the previous era he overpowered most everyone. Here is the issue I have with the fights you pointed out

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#1 Jeffries was 220+ lbs in an era where he was the biggest and baddest around he had the advantage over every opponent

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#2 he was always the bigger man to a fault fighting guys the size of modern dehydrated middleweights and Lt heavyweights while he the size of a modern heavyweight

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#3 he went way too many rounds with much smaller men to qualify as a power puncher....he was a grinder who used his size and strength to wear men down

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#4 It is no shame for a smaller faster hard hitting man to mark and cut a big man up but the big man not being able to blow out the small man in the early rounds is not a good sign of power.

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I cannot see Jeffries a man who struggled to beat up Corbett, Sharkey, or Fitz having the power to bother AJ or better yet if Fitz hurt him what would AJ's punches do to him?? Jeffries durability was not tested against a good big strong powerful man and as powerful as Fitz and Sharkey were they were not modern sized heavyweights and lets face hit Cauliflower ears like Sharkeys is not a sign of good defense and we know he could be KO'd just not by Jeffries another sign of questionable power. He had an iron chin and big power for the late 1890's til retirement in 05 but it does not translate into ATG Fitz power does he was a David taking on Goliaths.

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No one discredits Johnson regarding his bout with Obrien. Most called it a draw. In a large ring a faster smaller man can give a level of fits to a larger slower fighter in a short bout. Make it 15 rounds and the story would have been very different. But again there is no overwhelming evidence Johnson lost that bout and I would challenge anyone to find a reputable historian who concludes specifically that Johnson lost to Obrien.

 

Issue is AJ is a nothing at this point in his career. We do not know if he will fall flat as did Kovalev recently..... another fighter all the newbies were thinking could beat Marciano and Dempsey! Yet some want to lift AJ up to an ATG fighter level. He is not and it will be many years before he could ever be mentioned in the same breath as Jim Jeffries.