Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mr.DagoWop, Jun 20, 2017.


Jeffries atg?

  1. Yes

    43 vote(s)
    74.1%

  2. No

    15 vote(s)
    25.9%
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  1. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Idgaf about no dude named Adam Pollack. The people of the time thought it was a dive. They even made boxing in New York illegal because of it.

    No, it is completely relevant here because it effects Jeffries legacy. Having a win over a past prime fighter that he would have lost to had said fighter been prime changes things considerably. You just don't want to admit it.
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    #151
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Frank Loiterzo once said the following:

    "Jim Jeffries might have beaten Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali in the same night, or he might have lost to people like Michael Dokes"

    I think that is basically where we are on the matter.
     
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    #152
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    What this dude called Adam Pollack has done, is put together all of the surviving contemporary testimony, in the most comprehensive possible way.

    The result is an unclear picture.

    Basically either answer is possible.
     
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    #153
  4. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Its opinionated. I'm asking you whether or not he beats those fighters. Not if Marciano, Louis, Spinks, etc. Are atgs. Please don't change the subject, I don't have time for that kind of bs.
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    #154
  5. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    I think that goes for any fighter who's legacy primarily relies on newspaper accounts.

    I'm just using him as an example of a past prime fighter.

    It is relevant because he had experience with them already. With Sharkey he proved he could beat him already. Already fighting someone is better than going into the fight without ever being in the ring with them. That is why rematches are generally easier.

    I wouldn't say Greb was one of the better contenders of his reign. Harry Wills yes. Greb wasn't even ranked after 1923 maybe prior. It would have been cool if Dempsey had fought Greb but it doesn't make or break his legacy. After all, Greb was a middleweight lets be real. Would have no real standing on how he would do against other heavyweights win or lose.

    The fact that Ruhlin, Corbett, Sharkey, and Fitz were the only top contenders of his era shows how weak of an era it really was. Corbett hadn't even won since before Jeffries turned pro. Ruhlin and Sharkey got knocked out by past prime Fitz. Its not like Fitz was a couple of years past prime, he was nearly 40 and a middleweight!
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    #155
  6. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    I haven't read what he said on the subject.
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    #156
  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Jeffries actually did significantly worse against Fitzsimmons and Sharkey in the rematches.

    He handled them both easily first time round, and they gave him fits in the rematches!
    There is a bit of circular logic creeping in here.

    It is OK to have an opinion on whether an era is weak or strong, but you have to come at it with the view that that opinion could always be wrong.

    That is why I always give a fighter credit for success relative to era.
     
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    #157
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Ruhlin froze against Jeffries and his manager threw the towel in between rounds 5,and 6.
    Ruhlin was a back number when Jeffries rematched him Fitzsimmons had given him a very bad beating a year earlier. In his only fight since Gus had struggled to get a draw with a drunk Maher.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
    mcvey, Jun 22, 2017
    mcvey, Jun 22, 2017
    #158
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that Ruhlin was seen as the obvious challenger before Fitzsimmons beat him.

    I think that after Jeffries Fitzsimmons II initially fell through, Ruhlin was seen as being second in line.

    We see all the same nonsense today though.

    Look at Klitschko Haye, or Canello Golovkin.

    I see the same thing going on here.
     
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    janitor, Jun 22, 2017
    #159
    Mendoza likes this.
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Bottom line is that despite pleading for a fight with Jeffries ,Fitzsimmons had to wait for another 2 year before he got his chance, by which time he was nearly 40 years old!
     
    mcvey, Jun 22, 2017
    mcvey, Jun 22, 2017
    #160
  11. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Exactly. He had experience with them already and did worse in the rematches. However I'm pretty sure he was injured in that fight so I just chalk it up to that.

    How is that circular logic? The era was weak because Ruhlin, Sharkey, Corbett, and Fitz were the top contenders. Corbett and Fitz were past prime. Ruhlin and Sharkey weren't any good because they got knocked out by a past prime fighter. It would be circular logic if I said that Ruhlin and Sharkey weren't good because they were knocked out by a past prime fighter and that Fitz was past prime because he had trouble knocking out Ruhlin and Sharkey who weren't any good.

    When Jeffries fought Ruhlin the second time he had already been knocked out by Fitz. When Jeffries fought Fitz he had already knocked him out. Same with Corbett. Jeffries had already beaten 3 of the 7 guys he defended against.
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    #161
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Maybe you should. Also this poll should be public. I'm guessing you voted no.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 22, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 22, 2017
    #162
  13. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Read accounts from a guy that wasn't there? No thanks.

    I'm not going to buy a book because a guy on the internet told me to. If you have a link to the pdf online for free then I will be more than happy to read it.
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    #163
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Read account from people who were there, that is who he quotes. What is wrong with this?

    If you can't do that, okay but you should not question what you do not know.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 22, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 22, 2017
    #164
  15. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Well that's a very fascist thing to say...

    Like I said if you have a pdf or name of the book then I will look online for it.
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 22, 2017
    #165
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