Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Back in 1910, "White supremacy" was a given. Even most black persons assumed it true in many areas of life, to some extent.
To most well-to-do white people, espousing white supremacist sentiment was considered respectable.

 

My grandma was virtually Heinrich Himmler so this doesn't make sense.

I always called her "Gran" but that was short for Grandwizard, not Grandmother.

She agreed with almost everything that came out of Muhammad Ali's mouth, incidentally.

 

I'm not sure why the subject of racism comes up so often regarding Jim Jeffries place among heavyweights.
Judge him as a boxer and as a champion.
He has enough flaws to paw over there without speculating on his character. People mention the colour line a lot but who was he supposed to have ducked and for how long?
I understand why the Dempsey-Wills affair is so controversial and significant but where is the parallel during the reign of Jeffries ?

 

Plus a cauliflower ear.

He called Johnson a n*gger,a skunk ,and a c*on many times in public and in print, he refused to shake his hand before or after their fight, he made more racist statements than any other heavyweight champion, including Ali, before or since ,his closest friend among fighters Tom Sharkey was the same , that makes him a racist. It has no bearing on his ability as a fighter, it's just who he was.

 

in those days where exactly? in the racist USA? yep.

in other parts of the world, no.

the USA was massively backwards and racist whichever way you look at it. Worse than Nazi Germany towards Jews in many respects. But they get a free pass because they try to obscure the past.

 

He was offered big guarantees to defend against Denver Ed Martin, and Sam McVey,and as champion he also refused to fight Jack Johnson saying," all the time I am champion I will not defend my title against a Black Man,when there are no more white challengers to fight I will retire I will not take a chance of losing my title to a black man."

 

Not necessarily.

For example most people would regard Charles Paddock as one of the greatest sprinters of all time, even though he would not be great today.

If you thought that Jeffries was better than anything that had gone before, but that he would not be successful at the highest level today, you could still regard him as being an all time great.

 

I seriously doubt that.
Ali's mouth was too big and too fast for Jim Jeff to compete.
And Ali had radio and TV etc. so he could rant at full speed.
He even went on a public lecture circuit endorsing racial separation. It was his thing.

 

Yeah, he drew the colour line, I get that. But were any of those men the OUTSTANDING contenders at that particular moment in time?

 

Was Dempsey ever cut badly in several fights, did he have his nose broken three times , did he have a cauliflower ear.?

They were more deserving of title shots than John Finnegan, Jack Munroe,and Jim Corbett 2. The problem with Black fighters pushing their claims was that they were condemned to a virtual round robin against each other.

 

For what it is worth, Jeffries described the notion of one defeating another in a boxing ring as demonstrating the superiority of one race over the other as completely ridiculous and nothing more than a way to sell tickets. He said that he knew as many white people who were bad people as blacks who were good people and vice versa.

What he did admit to was preferring the white man to hold the title than the coloured fighter. He explained it as not being for any reason of racism but for the simple reason that he was white so he wanted a fellow white person to win, just like an australian would want an australian to win the title. I cant remember if he he actually said it or not but i got the feeling that he would prefer to see Jack Johnson as champion than Gunner Smith.

To be honest, i dont think this is really racism despite the modern politically correct stance of most young kids today.

 

Here is my response to Janitor after he said Jeffries fought the best available challengers.
Being the best available does not make them particularly meritorious and they weren't the best available anyway that is without question incorrect.
On 6th April1900 Jeffries defended his title against 4-2-4 John Finnegan.
Finnegan received his title shot on the back of being ko'd in his last fight by Gus Ruhlin,Ruhlin floored him7 times in that fight.Finnegan was won 4 of his 11 fights his 4 wins were over men with following records

9-13-2
5-3-0
5-2-0
0-0-0
The rest of his record up to that time is 4 draws and 1 no contest and2 losses.
That is in1900, that year Bob Fitzsimmons ko'd both Gus Ruhlin and Tom Sharkey the top 2 contenders in the space of two weeks did he get the title shot? No! He had to wait another 2 years for his chance, by which time he was pushing 40!

1. Jeffries fought Gus Ruhlin on the 15th of Nov 19O1,Ruhlin had been half killed by Bob Fitsimmons a year earlier and
   had only one contest since in which he struggled to a draw with Peter Maher over 6 rds.
   In 1901 the standout challenger to Jeffries without any doubt at all was Bob Fitzsimmons who had ko'd both Ruhlin and Sharkey in the space of 2 weeks in1900!Who was Jeffries choice as a challenger Ruhlin! .
   Denver Ed Martin was a deserving challenger in1901 ,he had beaten Klondike,Fred Russell,Joe Butler,Fred Byers,Sandy Ferguson,Hank Griffin and Bob Armstrong. Martin was Gus Ruhlin's chief sparring partner and many wondered who would win if they went at it for real.
   Another challenger for consideration was Jack Johnson, he had beaten Frank Childs,George Gardner,Joe Kennedy,Martin,Joe Butler,Sandy Ferguson,and Sam McVey. Ruhlin was a poor choice. In1901 , the most deserving challenger was undoubtedly Fitzsimmons, followed by Martin and Johnson.
   
   On14th of Aug 1903 Jeffries defended against Jim Corbett,Corbett's credentials for a title shot? He had been retired for 3 years ,was having eye problems ,had won just 1 fight in the last7 years, against light heavy Kid McCoy and that was widely considered to have been a fake and he was one month off of 37 years old.
   By Aug1903 Jack Johnson had beaten:
   Klondike
   Kennedy
   Childs
   Russell
   Gardner
   Martin
   McVey
   Ferguson
   Butler
   
   He stands head and shoulders over every other challenger. Jeffries picked Corbett!
   
   On the 26th Aug 1904 Jeffries defended against Jack Munroe.
   Munroe had beaten:
   A washed up Tom Sharkey who nevertheless managed to floor him in their 6 rounder. An alcoholic Peter Maher who had won just 1 of his last 6 fights ,[he still floored Munroe] ,and that was a dsq over the welterweight palooka Joe Grim.
   Munroe's other wins were over men with the following records.
   13-16-2
   1-0-0
   0-0-0
   0-0-0
   0-0-0
   1-5-1
   0-0-0
   0-0-0
   0-0-0
   By Aug 1904 Jack Johnson had beaten
   Klondike
   Kennedy
   Russell
   Martin
   Gardner
   McVey
   Butler
   Ferguson
   Childs
   Are you seriously suggesting that Munroe's credentials for a title chance in1904 were superior to Johnsons?
   Jim Jeffries had 4 gimmee defences out of a total of 7, the only live challengers he fought were Sharkey ,Fitz and Corbett1!Two of whom he had beaten already.
   Please don't insult our intelligence further!

 

James Jackson Jeffries was a racist,BWTF he was hardly on his own in early 1900's America!

 

I suspect there were some good white fighters who were more deserving that Finnegan, Munroe and Corbett too.

 

Bob Fitzsimmons stands out as the best challenger from1900 -1902 there is no argument