Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

If we accept that Finnegan was a tune up fight, then we wouldn’t expect him to be a world beater.

If Jeffries had fought one of the top contenders instead, he would have had to undergo a full training camp, and that would have made the fight a totally different proposition.

I think that Jeffries was right to rematch Corbett, based on his performance in their first encounter.

There were better challengers than Munro available in hindsight, but this might not have been so obvious at the time.

It was probably either Munro or a black challenger, lets put it that way.

 

"There is absolutely no objective way of knowing how two fighters from separate eras would do against each other. Absolutely no way."

Then why make it the criteria for greatness then?

Instead of judging on what we can know we are asked to judge on what we can't know.

 

Cauliflower ears may have more to do with wrestling than boxing. Both Jeff and Sharkey trained via wrestling as well as traditional boxing exercises. Certainly fighting wars with Sharkey as well as one punch brutal KO punchers such as Fitzsimmons is going to produce damage. Jeff would not be the only "puncher" to take physical damage to come out victorious.

All theAmerican hwt champions comments from that time period must be understood through the eyes of that time period. What was acceptable jargon in 1900 is vastly different than what is acceptable in 2017.

 

The more I read and research, the more I see a need for two champions up until the time of Tunney. I consider Jeffries to be merely a co-champion... at best.

 

It is widely understood that Jeffries was the best in the world up until the avent of Johnson. Although there was a level of clamor for a Jeffries Johnson bout prior to Jeffs retirement there was no chance that bout was going to occur and this had little to do with Jeffries. Same situation occurred some 20 years later regarding Dempsey Wills.

 

I consider Jeffries to be less legitimate than Childs, Armstrong or Martin.

 

Jeffries beat the hwt champion of the world to become worlds hwt champion. Cannot take that away from him. YOu also cannot blame Jeffries for the racism rampant in America during that time. There was no chance a black man was getting a title shot during Jeffries time.

 

Jeffires was the World WHITE Heavyweight Champion and should only be referred to as such. I give him all the credit for being so.

Childs, Armstrong and Martin were the COLORED heavyweight champs, a title I consider slightly more legitimate because not only did they win among their race but were willing to fight any of the World's White Heavyweight Champions had they the balls to do so.

 

The other point to consider is that Jeffries fought more black fighters than any other hwt champion up until Louis. Missing were defenses vs black challengers but this was culturally driven.

Langford advertised to fight any man in the world, except Jim Jeffries.

Tom Sharkey heavyweight top contender, thought that Jeffries would have beaten Dempsey and Louis on the same night. He said Jeffries was strong like a bull and quick on his feet like a cat. Sharkey called Jeffries the greatest fighter of all time.

Root, Richie and Burns all champions rated Jeffries as the greatest heavyweight.

Johnson the only man to beat Jeffries, stated in an interview with Ring Magazine that he thought Jeffries was the greatest. In another interview, Johnson said Jeffries would beat both Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis.

Corbett said of Jeffries, "The thing the always impressed me was the speed his speed and he weighed two-hundred-twenty-five pounds. Jeffries was the greatest Heavyweight Champion of them all."

Dempsey stated that Jim Jeffries was a tough gun. If we could have gotten in the ring together, each at our best... I probably would have had my chin knocked off.

Brady, who managed both Jim Jeffries and Jim Corbett stated: "There was never a man fitted anatomically, physically, and temperamentally for the role of World's Heavyweight Champion."

Fleischer described Jeffries: "One of the most formidable fighting machines the prize ring ever produced."

Dan Morgan, fight manager for forty years, who saw them all, rated Jeffries as the all-time best. Morgan called Jeffries a "Champion of Champions."

Richard stated.... "Big Jim will always live in my memory as the greatest heavyweight boxer of his time. While he reigned supreme, he gave all a chance. He did not know the meaning of the word fear."

W. W. Naughton, sports writer: "To sum up his qualities of ringsmanship, it may be said he is fairly talented in every branch of self-defense. He boxes cleverly, defends himself well, and strikes a hard blow. But back of all these are the qualities which have made him a champion, magnificent strength and wonderful endurance."

Dewitt Van Court, boxing instructor and athletic director of the LA Athletic Club wrote: "I was with James J. Jeffries when he first started to box. I was with him when he won the Championship. I was with him when he lost it. Besides being the greatest Heavyweight Champion that ever lived, he is today and has been all his life, a man among men, a true friend with a heart as big as his body."

 

Problem is you cannot blame an individual fighter for cultural biases. Jeffries title was the legit title as it passed through the bare knuckle era to gloved via Sullivan-Corbett. The historic title. Unfortunately the legit title was an American based title during an era of extreme racism in America. which was uncontrolled by any one individual.

 

So, great, a bunch of old white dudes thought Jeffries was the bee's knees. I get it. I'm sure it made them feel good saying so.

Yet, he was still dragged into deep waters by old Corbett and supermiddle Fitz. He was the best that Whitey had to offer. But he was champion of no world.

 

In a big ring with runners canvas and small gloves fast moving small hwts could do very well until they got hit. Learn boxing history.

 

There were plenty better than Munro. Jeffries even admitted so after the fight and was looking for a match that might clear his name of the stain of the mismatch. The problem is that most of those were "dusky complected" and Jeffries was a horrible racist who was willing to fight a completely faded "name" like Jackson when it benefited his career but not willing to give the best available competition a chance in return.

 

When Jeffries won the title, the coloured heavyweight title was held by George Byers.

The same George Byers who lost to Tommy West.

Not only was this guy not capable of beating the best white heavyweights of the day, he wasn’t even capable of beating the best white welterweights!

Of course the bar was raised with guys like Childs and Martin, but they went exactly standout challengers.

Frankly the colour line has minimal impact on Jeffries legacy, before Jack Johnson becomes a factor!

 

And powerpunching heavies like McVea and Sharkey could well, too. Hell, Sharkey did well enough to have Jim's number in a way that Jeffries couldn't manage.

Learn anything.