Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

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Yes quite frankly.

Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, all beat key contenders at key times.

Martin didn’t quite do that, though you could still argue his case.

If it is such an outrage that Jeffries didn’t fight Johnson, then you should be shouting Harts case equally loudly, if not louder.

You should be comparing him to Max Schmeling, who had just beaten Joe Louis, and still didn’t get a title shot!

 

Jeff defeated Armstrong. Childs was KO'd by Choynski. Martin was KO'd by Armstrong.

How this sequence proves Jeff inferior is not clear to me.

The bottom line is Griffin and Armstrong lost to Jeffries. Childs and Johnson were KO'd by Choynski.

There weren't a great many black-white fights among the top men, but the ones there were did not favor the black fighters in the 1890's. The situation would change dramatically about a decade later.

*There is also a San Francisco newspaper report from 1896 claiming that Jeffries had also beaten Childs. With no sanctioning bodies and restricted newspaper coverage, this is certainly possible.

 

This is a valid point. None of the American white champions from Sullivan on until Braddock fought Louis defended against a black contender. The Braddock defense was probably because it was feared that none of the white American heavies could be counted on to defeat Schmeling and keep the championship in America. So the door opened for Louis.

Jeffries was notable for fighting top black men on the way up. Many of the other white champions didn't.

 

What evidence is there that the black contenders were prior to about 1903 or so the best and most dangerous opponents out there?

Johnson for example was KO'd by Choynski and couldn't beat Hank Griffin in three fights in 1901 and 1902, with a loss and two draws. In his very next fight after his second draw with Johnson, Griffin was KO'd by white journeyman Fred Russell.

 

The point that needs to be understood is nothing stopped Jeffries fighting black hwts on the way up....and he did. American culture stopped Jeffries from fighting blacks as hwt champion otherwise no doubt he would.

 

This is so patently false that it is laughable. Jeffries had no problem fighting blacks who added to his resume on the way up. With title is his hand it was he who drew the color line and repeated ad nauseum how the black should not get a chance at the crown. Society be damned. Burns at least had the ballz to face Johnson. Jeffries, the hayseed, racist dullard that he was, could only repeat the same cowardly tripe about how a black should never get a chance at the title. If necessary, there are about a thousand quotes from Jeffries , not Society, that can affirm this.

 

Okay. A lot has been made or Fitz hitting harder than Jeffries. But Fitz wasn't able to knock out Jeffries who was bigger than any good fighter Fitz fought and tougher than any of them. Jeff not being the puncher that Fitz was might indicate that Jeff couldn't knock out Jeff, but that isn't relevant. What is relevant is that Jeff could and did knock out Fitz.

Bottom line--Fitz couldn't KO Jeff. Jeff could KO Fitz. So Jeff KO'd Fitz.

Nothing hard to understand here. It is the interplay between chin and power. Could a younger Fitz have taken Jeff. Not likely I think, as his brutal KO's of Ruhlin and Sharkey in 1900 proved Fitz hadn't lost his punch.

Now matching Jeff with Dempsey would raise the same issues. Could Dempsey knock out Jeff? Could Jeff knock out Dempsey? Dempsey might hit somewhat harder than Fitz. Jeff was probably a bit tougher to hurt than Dempsey. How all this would work out is total guesswork.

 

You're an idiot.

Burns fought Johnson cause he was NOT AN AMERICAN. HE WAS CANADIAN and as such did not have the cultural baggage of racism that most all Americans harbored during that time. Society, American society, would not allow a mixed race hwt championship bout. It had zero to do with Keffries or any one individual.