Canelo v. Hagler's Top Middleweight Opponents?

I would say that a sportsperson's actual/natural size is more closely related to lean body mass and less about body fat and excess water. The volume of the latter two aspects can fluctuate, with quite significant effects on a person's weight, while the lean body mass component remains relatively stable - if that makes sense.

An extreme example of a person's weight far-inflating their actual size would be someone like Butterbean, who weighed in at over 300lbs for most of his fights but, who would probably, without the extreme obesity, be a small heavyweight and who might even, with his frame, quite possibly make the cruiserweight limit.

 

No. That was not really my point. I've been clear that I do not think the measure of a person's weight necessarily describes their size. The respective weights of two sportspeople cannot serve as the sole measure of a size comparison between them and there are clear examples where using weight as the measure of size would not work - amongst people in everyday life, as well as in sports.

Do you disagree that a person's size is more closely related to their lean body mass than it is to their body's fat and excess water content?


On Canelo - I would say what we do know is that, at age 23 and in his 44th bout, he was able to make a contracted 152 limit, which does not seem to reflect a person, who was having trouble making 154. This, despite the probability that he ballooned in weight between the official weigh-in and the night of the fight.

To what lengths? I do not think we can be sure of the lengths Canelo has gone to, in order to make any of his contracted/divisional weight limits, either. And, given that within the last two years, he has fought Middleweight contests at 155 then, whatever he goes through to make these weights, has not served to deter him from seeking catchweights against smaller men - rather than fully fledged Middleweights.


On Sibson - At age 18, he was weighing-in same day, at an average weight of over 160lbs. By age 21, there were concerns about Sibson's ability to actually cut to 160, without there being a negative impact on his performance. Similar concerns were raised about his difficulties making weight, in the build-up to the Hagler bout.

It's hard to tell how much he was cutting and how much he putting on, in the hours that ensued, before the fight itself - There were no unofficial weigh-ins later that night, in those days (at least none that I can recall). But, I know from experience that a lot of water weight can be put on quite quickly after dehydration, when a normal (or sometimes accelerated) intake of fluids has resumed.

I really do doubt Sibson could have ever made 154, without an adverse impact on his performance and quite likely his health.

 

I don't know about those other guys but Fully Obel was 6' and won a belt at super middleweight. So I think he's probably at least as big as Canelo. And Hearns was obviously massive despite moving up.

If we're just talking size.

 

The thread actually raises what I think is the most salient point, the comparisons are not appropriate, because we are using two different sets of rules for weighing in. If Alvarez is allowed to weigh in using the 24 hour method, and enough diuretics to turn himself into a mummy, then we should allow the others to do that too, perhaps they could boil down to welterweight ;-)
Alternatively, make him weigh in on the same day, he would be unlikely to make middleweight, if he did, he would probably resemble JCC Jr as he would be a slug due to dehydration. Alternatively, he could avoid that, and we can speculate on how he might do against Mike Spinks or Dwight Qawi ;-)
Canelo is an excellent fighter, but this argument about weights and size is just BS, but not because one is bigger/smaller so much as the rules have changed to allow fighters to compete in divisions they have no business fighting in.
I guess that is ok with everyone following the same rules, but it makes comparison with the past a bit of a joke, I am very suspicious that current champions would not be able to make their titled weight class for same day weighing in most cases, and former champions could conceivably fight at a lower weight division. The matchups are therefore invalid, because the rules are different, in a big important way.

 

You sir....make some very creative and satisfying threads.this is why i love this board and hate boxrecs joke of a classic boxing forum

 

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I don’t believe this to be the case. I think speculation otherwise is resting too much upon the Day-Before Weigh-in, as a means of attempting to explain a 5 or 6 pound deficit.

It also seems to imply that the Alvarez Camp have been prepared to expose their fighter to an unnecessary level of risk, on the strength of them having an extra 24 hours to aid a recovery. I don’t believe this, either.

When in camp for his 154/155 bouts, how far off making weight do you think Canelo has been, the day before his official weigh-in?

 

Apologies - I don't believe Canelo would have a difficult time making a same day weigh-in at 160. I suggest this, because we do know Canelo's history, which showed a gradual growing out of the Welterweight division, into the Light Middleweight division, and a consistent making of weight between 150 and 155 between the ages of 20 to 26.

I think he could make 155 same-day too and, whilst I cannot be absolutely sure of what the effects of that would be, the bigger question is really one of his recovery - not so much whether or not he could make the weight.


Because we know what we know, it seems unlikely that he is bigger than Sibbo. Sibson was a career middleweight from age 18 and often weighed in over the 160 limit, even at that age. Again, it's speculation, but I seriously doubt Sibson could have ever come in at 147, as Canelo was able to.


Perhaps a fact to consider is that, when Canelo made 155 for the defense of his Middleweight Title against Khan, the 30-day mandatory weigh-in had him at 163.8lbs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/bo...0-day-weigh-Amir-Khan-fight-draws-nearer.html

I take this as an indication, with four weeks to go, that he would have been well under 160, as they approached the Day-Before weigh-in. Also - though earlier on, Canelo was weighed at 157.4lbs, seven days prior to his bout with Mayweather.

https://ventwing.com/all-access-episode-4-floyd-mayweather-vs-canelo-alvarez-live-on-showtime-ppv/


I would agree that Canelo looks healthy at 160+ but I suppose the real question is does it make him bigger. He may well have built some muscle mass to add to his overall lean body mass. But, I have seen him looking a bit puffy, in between fights before now, which leads me to believe that he retains water. And, as I indicated in the beginning, I do not count temporary water weight as adding to his 'size'.

It could well be that Abel Sanchez is right but it seems more like him pouring the heat on Canelo for a scrap with his fighter. Either way, it's also reasonable to accept the possibility that Canelo and his camp have been realistic about the question of whether or not he could compete against other top-level Middleweights.

So, perhaps they have taken their time in preparing Canelo (admittedly, while Golovkin has grown a year or two older). Any increase in size will be in skeletal muscle mass and, in truth, while this is a gain in his overall lean body mass, it's not likely a natural product of his frame size. He won't be getting any bigger, per se. No more than Brook did when he bulked up for Golovkin.

At the moment, I don't think Alvarez can be considered as anything other than a blown up Light-Middleweight. I'll be happy to take that back if shown to be wrong, at some point - but, I believe his smaller size will become apparent in September, when we see him and Golovkin in the ring.

 

Ive always felt canelo who is a good solid but imo unspectacular talent has ruled a very weak 154 division.

The win over a over the hill cotto was impressive but going way back matthew hatton showed what amir khan did that a half clever boxer can cause problems.granted both took a terrible beating but canelo looked...nothing special.....that my problem with him......he physically looks a star,hes fresh and new s true superstar...he is taking anyone on....But....the competition out there cotto,money and ggg aside he has taken on is a very poor era.....kirkland and angulo would both have been beaten on the same night ..by a peak sibson and roldan...john mugabi and srl of 1987 vintage beat cotto and mayweather.....and hearns lol...canelo gets taken out face first in 4.....but going back to the questions at hand....sibbo has all the tools ,quick and a useful boxer like khan but far more of a chin...hell a shot sibson was even after 8 with tate....i see tony winning a decision...roldan is more susceptible but probably gets worn down....hamsho loses....antufermo could in theory outmuscle canelo but i see him getting cut to stop the fight....so with authority i think only sibbo has a good chance

 

Canelo at MW is basically unproven at this stage. Hamsho & Roldan would rough him up. Hearns would bounce him off the canvas like a basketball.