Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

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Perry.

Just who was that post in response to?

It would make life a damn site easier if you learnt how to use the quote function.

 

BS is your forte i know this and most on here.

im also known as a good poster according to YOU when you were attacked by others...sorry but when you get mugged on here dont call on me....i handle mysself on here and well you have THAT experiance of getting raped on here...lol...you fool. i cant stand you and i actually HOPE to run into you sometime soon...maybe a tourny...and we will see whats what? Though be reminded ( as you claim i know nothing) im 180 muscle and you ARE 150 if that of no known fight experiance...What was that ( you would knock my teeth out and such but a year ago?) .you idiot.


Mr DAGO FLOP...and his idiotic statements...i may right a book on you...on a comedy movie screen play???? I;ll have to send you 10% of the profits!

 

Who, in your view, was the first heavyweight champion of the world then?

 

I don't think that we can simply dismiss all of the sports writers of the era as being racist.

Many of them were highly critical of the colour line in general, and Jeffries stance on it in particular.

Even the ones who were most critical of him, don’t seem to have questioned the position that he was a standout talent.

 

Rich,

I think you a decent writer, but you have a lot to learn. For now if seems like Jeffries is the only man you mention when it comes to the size of his opponents, or the color line.

If all fighters are judged the same, props to you. If its only Jeffries it makes it an agenda. I'm not saying either way. Time will tell.

Jeffries was the first champion to fight the best of the times meaning fighting 1,2 and 3 while champion. He beat Fitz, Corbett and Sharkey #1, #2, and #3 in a years span from 1899-1900! Nat F wrote that Jeffries title opponents were the best ( sometime in the late 50's ) . He's the top historian.

He also gave re-matches, something many champions do not. Blew away Ruhlin who in my opinion was the #4-5 best man of the time line, and later on returned old, fat, and 6 years inactive to fight Jack Johnson. He also offered Jack Johnson a private fight as champion Johnson refused!

On his way up Jeffries fought Hank Griffin, highly ranked black opponents and knocked him out. The same Griffin years later and past his best beat Jack Johnson. Jeffries beat African American Bob Armstrong with a broken thumb ( in round one ) , and also defeated the legendary Peter Jackson ( whom John L Sullivan avoided partly because he was black and that good ), though older was in shape and form according to the press/news reads.

Also as champion, he toyed with Hank Griffin knocking him down several times in a 4 round match. If Griffin some how won, he's the next lineal champion. A fine did you know... So Jeffries can ignore the color line if he chooses to.

Post the blow of Munroe in 1904, he did mention Johnson as a possible opponent, but I suspect there would need to be a Reno like purse. Once Hart beat Johnson in 1905, Jeffreis said he'd fight Hart if there was money it in. There was not, fans saw it as a blow out. So he stayed retired.

If you want to see which champions used the color line, Jack Johnson was the worst and biggest offender, skirting McVey, Langford, and Jeannette who were #1, #2, and #3 for several years. Johnson even backed out of a singed contract to fight Langford in 1909 as champion! Then Dempsey who avoided Wills. Even Joe Louis. Yes, just two African Americans fought in 26 total title defenses...

 

Correct.

1896-05-22 San Francisco Call (that's prior to Jeffries first pro fight listed at boxrec) wrote that "Jeffries has fought and whipped twenty men during his short career as a prize-fighter, and is now looking for big game."

 

"Dempsey was out of Jeff's league in terms of a puncher and every facet of the game."

I remember not too long ago someone saying this about Dempsey versus Marciano also. Better in everything. Too bad it didn't translate to Dempsey beating his opponents as consistently as either Jeff or especially Marciano did.

But aren't fantasy opinions grand. The world and history as you want them to be with heroes "who bestride the world like a colossus."

 

I agree. "Reaching a level of greatness in your own time that deserves them to be remembered for all time" is putting it rather well.

 

Langford who saw both Jeffries and Dempsey live stated that "Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen".

 

Yes, Jeffries has to be held responsible.
But the other side to the equation is that none of the white American champions before him defended against a black man either. So he was following the convention of the times.

 

I completely disagree. You cannot hold one man responsible for the dictates from his culture. Nor can you reasonably expect Jeffries or any one specific fighter to have the political clout to overcome the cultural biases of the day.....and these were firmly entrenched biases. Those that pushed for racial equality were the vast minority. Those times were the beginning stages of a cultural movement that would eventually prove fruitful decades later.

 

It isn't laughable.

Most white champions immediately drew the color line after winning the championship. But Jeff seems to have been different.

Adam Pollock in his biog of Jeffries quotes Jeff in 1899 after he won the title--"I do not bar anyone, black or white, old or young." (p. 505)

In fact he hadn't on the way up. When did he decide to draw the color line and why? Pollack alludes to one possible reason. Boxing was in a struggle to stay legal in the USA and it was touch and go. Theodore Roosevelt, who had been a supporter of boxing, flipped as Governor of New York and led the charge to repeal the Horton law. He soon became president. Illinois had also banned boxing. Avoiding mixed matches for the heavyweight championship might have been viewed as prudent to fend off a total Federal ban which was certainly a possibility. After all, boxing was probably not nearly as widely practiced as boozing, but Prohibition did become law.

Speculation, of course, but Jeff's original statement negating the color line is very interesting in contrast to his later statements.

*that quote is apparently from the Police Gazette.