Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Jeff had no issues fighting any man no matter of color. This is why prior to becoming champion he fought black fighters. As champion it was a different story as the white race in America did not want a black to have the chance of being called the world hwt champion which indicates a dominance over all men.

 

A lot of emotion. I will concede the high moral ground to you. I admit to being a sinner. My take is Jeff was born about 140 years ago in a racist society and so was a racist. As the old Rogers & Hammerstein song put it, you have to be taught. Jeffries was taught to be a racist. We are thankfully taught not to be racists. But I can't be certain that I would have risen above the society of the time any more than Jeffries did. So I will let it for others to take their place at the front of the Temple to thank Whomever for not being sinners like myself while leading the charge in damning old Jeff. Being an agnostic, I would rather stick to the facts of boxing history than to moral posturing.

Some historical issues--The black fighters the 1890's could and did get fights with white fighters. It is hard to tell with obscure fighters whether they were black or white, but I looked up over at boxrec the records of the top black fighters of the era and white opponents I would know.
Frank Childs had 58 recorded fights. Fights with those I know or think were white--George LaBlanche(2), Dan Creedon, Joe Choynski(2), Henry Baker, Ed Dunkhorst, Pete Everett, Fred Russell(3), Wild Bill Hanrahan, Jack Bonner(3). So at least 15 fights with whites.
Bob Armstrong had 34 recorded boxrec fights-Fights with those I know or think were white--Joe Choynski, Frank Slavin(2), Yank Kenny, Ed Dunkhorst(2), Pete Everett, Jim Jeffries, Joe Goddard, Jim Jeffords, George Gardner, Sandy Ferguson, Tom Conway. So at least 13 with whites.
In both cases there are certainly many more. The same is largely true of Griffin. Martin seems to have fought more against black opponents.

Different eras were different to some degree concerning the color line in non-championship fights. In the 1890's there was a considerable number of mixed matches. The top black fighters for the most part did not beat the top white fighters they fought and even struggled with second level guys. Choynski KO'd Childs and the young Johnson. Jeffries beat Griffin and Armstrong. Childs and Griffin couldn't manage a victory over Joe Kennedy in three tries, with three draws. Generally the black fighters seem to be below the top of the talent pool.

It was much different between 1905 and 1915 with Johnson, Langford, Jeannette, and McVea dominating the division and clearly superior.

Between 1915 and 1925 Wills stands out but is given few shots at top white fighters. During the 1905 to 1925 era there is the relentless blacks fighting blacks over and over again rematches as there were fewer mixed matches. Looking at the 1890's I could not find any more than a four fight series, not that excessive. By Wills era, fighting another black opponent 20 or so times happened.

1925 to 1935--Godfrey and Gains were the best black heavies, and might have been champions if they had been the right man at the right time. Gains for example beat Carnera. But I wouldn't see either as necessarily the best of the time or on equal footing with the best of the time.

1935 on--the fall of the color line with the rise of Joe Louis.

1937 to 1962--mainly black champions, but something I noticed. During this 25 year period, how many black fighters fought for the heavyweight title? I think only seven--Louis, Lewis, Walcott, Charles, Moore, Patterson, and Jackson. How many whites did? I think thirty-one. Despite the champions generally being black, it was easier getting a title shot if one was white.

 

Do you mean Tunney rather than Gibbons in the first line?

 

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This is a tough issue. We must condemn the racism of that society. How much we condemn any individual who merely reflects what he was taught all his life is another issue. I remember one of my history profs back in the day saying an historian must be compassionate when judging the past.

 

Jeffries said that he refused to fight black fighters because he claimed that black boxing fans grew insulting and insolent when Peter Jackson fought white men. Straight up racist nonsense.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7QwbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pkgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4030,1538663&hl=en

 

I don't know what you mean by consistent then. He only fought Gibbons once.

I find it interesting that Gibbons is an all time great, but Jeffries isn't.

 

Boxing fans being insulting?! No way!

 

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"was Jeffries a great fighter?"

Okay, and you say he wasn't because he avoided the best competition. He did avoid Johnson in 1904 and 1905, but fought and lost to him in 1910. That effects his legacy negatively, but does it wreck it?

The rest of your argument is that there is a superior group of black heavyweights out there that Jeffries didn't fight while fighting guys he shouldn't have been fighting like Fitz and Sharkey. Okay. Who are they specifically, other than Johnson late in his reign.