Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

This is a fair argument, but it does rise or fall to some extent on if h2h match-ups are what the judgment is made on rather than performance. I don't know of anyone Jeff fought who was actually a middleweight. Choynski and Fitz were probably light-heavies (off Adam Pollock's research) and most of the others in the 180 to 200 lb. range.
And we have to be fair in comparing Jeff to other champions. Dempsey was KO"d by Flynn, went the distance with Gibbons, and lost twice to Tunney, and none of these men were bigger than the fellows Jeff was fighting. Were any of Tunney's name opponents bigger than Munroe or Ruhlin? I don't think so. Schmeling's biggest opponent was 207 lbs. Munroe might have been heavier than that. If Jeff had fought Dunkhorst he would have a huge man on his resume, but as Dunkhorst was slaughtered by Fitz, what would that really amount to?
If you bring up that Jeff was bigger than Tunney, Dempsey, or Schmeling, and therefore had bigger weight pulls than these men did, my answer would be that this doesn't matter in heavyweight boxing.

 

Only in one eye

 

Only in one eye .

Denver Ed Martin and Sam McVey promoters offered Jeffrries big guarantees to defend aginst them , he ignored them.

 

A fighter should not be held accountable for cultural issues that prevent bouts from occurring. Period. It was out of their control.

 

It isn't a matter of comdemning him ,its a matter of acknowledging he was a racist.

 

Yes. He was. He was taught so.

 

You're missing the point regarding Jeffries, he had no particular objection to fighting black men what he categorically refused to do was defend his title against them,that is inarguable.

 

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

Adam Pollack made a point that Fitz and Jeff made more money on theatrical tours than they did fighting. So they often were a bit reluctant to give up their lucrative sidelight for training.

When exactly were these fights supposed to take place? Martin was 19 in 1901 when Jeff defended against Ruhlin. He was still only 20 in 1902 when Jeff defended against Fitz. The Police Gazette talked of him as a comer but maintained he still needed seasoning and experience before tackling Jeffries. He quickly fell apart against Johnson, Armstrong, and McVea. Hard to score Jeff on Martin.

McVea was a teenager in 1903 when they began talking of him as a comer. Three losses to Johnson and one to Martin put him back.

Johnson beat them both and was clearly the one we should focus on as a legit avoidance by Jeffries.

In fairness to any champion, we should ask did folks at the time see this man as a top contender and did he sustain his position long enough to expect a match to be made?

 

"You've got to be carefully taught, before it's too late to hate all the people your relatives hate."

 

"today's fighters"

Jeff is not fighting today.

"he was tested in the fire of competition and was KO'd by a small man."

As was Willard.

but not Jeffries.

I at least am not saying that you could time machine Jeff into the modern world and he would do what he did back then. But then again I don't know of any athlete in any sport that could be time-machined into the modern world who I could be certain would be today what he was in his own day.

The issue for me is how well did Jeff do in his own day.

 

"You've got to be carefully taught"

I think that is the name of the song I referred to in an earlier post.

 

MCVey

Promoters were willing to guarantee Jeffries big purses to fight both Martin and McVey.Jeffries didn't make money touring until he announced his comeback he was a flop as an actor .Once he said he was coming back he cashed in and delayed his return because he was coining it.
Martin had wins over:
Klondike, Russell,Childs,Griffin,McVey That's a better list of scalps than Finnegan and Munroe could muster between them!
McVey had wins over Russell,Carter,Martin.
Johnson had wins over.Klondike,Kennedy,Gardner,Russell,Ferguson,Butler,Childs, McVey. No one is going to tell me that A 6 years retired Corbett,a fat Miner, a no hoper who had been floored 7 times and ko'd in his last fight, a Gus Ruhlin whom Fitz had half killed ,were more deserving of title shots!

 

He did okay against the old white, super middles and light heavies he defended against , not great because he was in danger of losing to Corbett ,and had his face reduced to raw hamburger by a near 40 years old Fitz.

Great for his time, but not for all time!

 

South Pacific.Sung by Lieutenant Joe Cable.