Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Perry is so blindingly ignorant to such things he also does not think this issue should place doubt on Jeffries infallibility. Though we have learned since then how unfair and dangerous it was to place men who were at severe size and strength disadvantages against powerful big men. Now we define greatness as "all things being equal who is greater" rules we now play by. Jesus guaranteed fighters of the time knew the difference.

 

Wait you are telling me that ole Nat never saw prime Jeff???????

It seems that Fleischer may not be as credible since he never got to see the great Jeff beat up undersized small men!

 

We will never know Jeff avoided him

 

Do you want me to post some lists silly bo*llocks?..

John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)

1. Joe Louis
   
   
2. Jack Johnson
   
   
3. Jack Dempsey
   
   
4. Muhammad Ali
   
   
5. Gene Tunney
   
   
6. Joe Frazier
   
   
7. Jim Jeffries
   
   
8. James J. Corbett
   
   
9. Rocky Marciano
   
   
10. Max Schmeling

Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)

1. Muhammad Ali
   
   
2. Joe Louis
   
   
3. Jack Dempsey
   
   
4. Jack Johnson
   
   
5. Gene Tunney
   
   
6. Jim Jeffries
   
   
7. Max Schemeling
   
   
8. Rocky Marciano
   
   
9. James J. Corbett
   
   
10. Bob Fitzsimmons

Sports Illustrated, 1979

1. Jack Johnson
   
   
2. Joe Louis
   
   
3. Muhammad Ali
   
   
4. Jack Dempsey
   
   
5. Rocky Marciano
   
   
6. Gene Tunney
   
   
7. Sam Langford
   
   
8. Jersey Joe Walcott
   
   
9. Floyd Patterson
   
   
10. Ezzard Charles

Gilbert Odd, 1985 (Kings of the Ring)

1. Muhammad Ali
   
   
2. Joe Louis
   
   
3. Jack Johnson
   
   
4. Floyd Patterson
   
   
5. Jack Dempsey
   
   
6. Jim Jeffries
   
   
7. Tommy Burns
   
   
8. Gene Tunney
   
   
9. Jim Corbett
   
   
10. Max Schmeling
    
11. 
    
12. Nigel Collins, 1997
13. 1. Muhammad Ali
       
       
    2. Joe Louis
       
       
    3. Evander Holyfield
       
       
    4. Larry Holmes
       
       
    5. George Foreman
       
       
    6. Jack Johnson
       
       
    7. Rocky Marciano
       
       
    8. Joe Frazier
       
       
    9. Jack Dempsey
       
       
    10. Sonny Liston
14. Herbert Goldman, 1997
    
    1. Muhammad Ali
       
       
    2. Joe Louis
       
       
    3. Sonny Liston
       
       
    4. Mike Tyson
       
       
    5. Larry Holmes
       
       
    6. Jack Johnson
       
       
    7. Jack Dempsey
       
       
    8. George Foreman
       
       
    9. Rocky Marciano
       
       
    10. Joe Frazier
        
        
    11. Steve Farhood, 1997
        1. Muhammad Ali
           
           
        2. Joe Louis
           
           
        3. Jack Johnson
           
           
        4. Larry Holmes
           
           
        5. Rocky Marciano
           
           
        6. Jack Dempsey
           
           
        7. Jim Jeffries
           
           
        8. Evander Holyfield
           
           
        9. Mike Tyson
           
           
        10. George Foreman
    12. 
        BBC Sports, 2004
        1. Muhammad Ali
           
           
        2. Joe Louis
           
           
        3. Jack Johnson
           
           
        4. Larry Holmes
           
           
        5. Jack Dempsey
           
           
        6. Rocky Marciano
           
           
        7. Lennox Lewis
           
           
        8. Mike Tyson
           
           
        9. George Foreman
           
           
        10. Evander Holyfield
        11. 
            Richard O'Brien (Sports Illustrated Senior Editor) 2009
            1. Muhammad Ali
               
               
            2. Joe Louis
               
               
            3. Sonny Liston
               
               
            4. Larry Holmes
               
               
            5. Jack Johnson
               
               
            6. Jack Dempsey
               
               
            7. George Foreman
               
               
            8. Joe Frazier
               
               
            9. Rocky Marciano
               
               
            10. Lennox Lewis
            11. 
                Bert Sugar, 2011 (Ultimate Book of Boxing Lists)
                1. Joe Louis
                   
                   
                2. Muhammad Ali
                   
                   
                3. Jack Johnson
                   
                   
                4. Jack Dempsey
                   
                   
                5. Gene Tunney
                   
                   
                6. Rocky Marciano
                   
                   
                7. George Foreman
                   
                   
                8. Larry Holmes
                   
                   
                9. Sam Langford
                   10Joe Frazier
                Teddy Atlas, 2011 (Ultimate Book of Boxing Lists)
                1. Joe Louis
                   
                   
                2. Muhammad Ali
                   
                   
                3. Jack Johnson
                   
                   
                4. Rocky Marciano
                   
                   
                5. Gene Tunney
                   
                   
                6. Jack Dempsey
                   
                   
                7. Sam Langford
                   
                   
                8. John L. Sullivan
                   
                   
                9. Larry Holmes
                   
                   
                10. Sonny Liston
                    Got enough?
                11. Matt Hamilton, Esnewsreporting.com, 2012
                    1. Joe Louis
                       
                       
                    2. Muhammad Ali
                       
                       
                    3. Jack Johnson
                       
                       
                    4. Joe Frazier
                       
                       
                    5. Sam Langford
                       
                       
                    6. George Foreman
                       
                       
                    7. Jack Dempsey
                       
                       
                    8. Larry Holmes
                       
                       
                    9. Rocky Marciano
                       
                       
                    10. Gene Tunney
                    11. 
                        Tyson Bruce, www.boxinginsider.com, 2014
                        1. Muhammad Ali
                           
                           
                        2. Joe Louis
                           
                           
                        3. Larry Holmes
                           
                           
                        4. Jack Johnson
                           
                           
                        5. Rocky Marciano
                           
                           
                        6. George Foreman
                           
                           
                        7. Lennox Lewis
                           
                           
                        8. Jack Dempsey
                           
                           
                        9. Evander Holyfield
                           
                           
                        10. Joe Frazier
                        11. Mike Casey, sites.google.com/site/alltimeboxingrankings, 2015
                            1. Jack Dempsey
                               
                               
                            2. Muhammad Ali
                               
                               
                            3. Joe Louis
                               
                               
                            4. Jack Johnson
                               
                               
                            5. Rocky Marciano
                               
                               
                            6. Jim Jeffries
                               
                               
                            7. George Foreman
                               
                               
                            8. Joe Frazier
                               
                               
                            9. Sonny Liston
                               
                               
                            10. Lennox Lewis
                            Tony Connolly, Boxing News, Dec 2015
                            1. Muhammad Ali
                               
                               
                            2. Joe Louis
                               
                               
                            3. Jack Johnson
                               
                               
                            4. Larry Holmes
                               
                               
                            5. George Foreman
                               
                               
                            6. Joe Frazier
                               
                               
                            7. Sonny Liston
                               
                               
                            8. Rocky Marciano
                               
                               
                            9. Lennox Lewis
                               
                               
                            10. Mike Tyson
    13. Where's Jeffries in all these?

 

Tells all here about your vast ring experience

You look at this and still the old timers who fed you the bull about Jeffries greAtness and still believe they weren't partial to there era???

 

He did not simply watch film as an expert he EXAMINED closely....

 

Both of who he eventually fought.

How many key fights do happen at the optimum possible time?

 

The other possibility is that they were simply correct, or partially correct.

 

You seem to be obsessed with the size of Jeffries opponents, to the extent of not being able to see anything else.

We don't even know exactly what most of the weighed anyway.

 

We forget that these lists are opinion made by men who came from a less enlightened time period

 

Yes he did. Who says he did not? Nat saw his first boxing match in 1899.

Jeffries vs Sharkey II came out very clear on film and was re-run 100's of times in theaters. I'm 99.999% sure Fletcher saw it, as well as Jeffries vs Ruhlin ( which can be viewed today ) , and perhaps Jeffries vs Monroe ( lost film )

So you see Rich, you still have much to learn. But my hunch is one you do, you'll be more objective than some here.

 

He did not. He offered a private fight, and returned out of the ring for 6 years, fat and 35 to face him in 1910.

 

True. When Jeffries vs. Fitz 2 came around Jeffries said if Fitz claims 170, put me down for 144. A sign that Fitz was heavier than he listed.

With Rich, so far I have noticed he's all one way. One thing if for sure, Jeffries unlike Johnson, Corbett, Sullivan, Willard, Louis. Dempsey never lost to anyone under 200 pounds.

So if Rich is really obsessed about size or upset losses to smaller men, he applies the same standards.

We all see in time if he sees it the same way for other fighters.

Rich, can you tell us?

 

You are suggesting then that size is irrelevant and that Bob Foster who is considered the best 175 lb ever when tested against Frazier should have been great enough to overcome the differential. I am flabbergasted actually as a multi sport athlete and been a boxer good enough to have won a jr Olympics, bronze, silver and gold medal 2 silver gloves championships a 3 x golden glove champion and fought competitive in the National and intl level as well as sparring partners with some ranked fighters that anyone would say that size does not matter. This is a fallacy the exposes the lack of real experience of seemingly credible posters and any real fighter knows it immediately. Its this ignorance that used to get fighters killed before the public wised up and saw the lack of sportsmanship in this. In every sport bigger stronger athletes have an advantage it is unfair to expect a Light heavyweight to handle a quality heavyweight let alone an ATG. Tyson like Frazier Had quick feet and the Two greatest ltheavvyweights in history couldn't survive with these guys but Fitz could survive a possibly greater for longer? This crap about ring size is another ignorant claim... Fighters today still negotiate the size and there are huge rings out there today that have little padding which makes them fast. Who are these guys kidding with this layman understanding every person on this board with real experience understands these things. It's this lack of reasoning people with experience avoid boards like this.