Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

I did a quick skim and saw a very short clip of Firpo on the speedbag, and one second of this footage which was very choppy:
http://imgur.com/a/TNhQq

 

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1899-06-09 : Bob Fitzsimmons 167 lbs lost to James J. Jeffries 206 lbs by KO at 1:32 in round 11 of 20

• Location: Coney Island A.C., Brooklyn, New York, USA
• Referee: George Siler

• World Heavyweight Title (1st defense by Fitzsimmons)
• See Also: James J. Jeffries vs. Bob Fitzsimmons (2nd meeting)

Notes

• When questioned about Jeffries' size advantage, Fitzsimmons said, "The bigger they are, the heavier they fall."
• A crowd of 9,000 produced a gate of $85,270.
• Fitzsimmons' purse was $35,581 and Jeffries' was $27,054.
• Fitzsimmons was a 2 to 1 favorite.
• Jeffries dropped Fitzsimmons once in the second round, twice in the tenth and once in the eleventh.
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1902-07-25 : Bob Fitzsimmons 172 lbs lost to James J. Jeffries 219 lbs by KO in round 8 of 20

• Location: The Arena, San Francisco, California, USA
• Referee: Eddie Graney

• World Heavyweight Title (5th defense by Jeffries)
• Program Cover
• See Also: James J. Jeffries vs. Bob Fitzsimmons (1st meeting)

Jeffries had won the championship in 1899 from the extraordinary Bob Fitzsimmons at Coney Island, New York. Fighting out of a crouch, Jeffries had

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the champion’s guard and battered his ribs, forcing a stoppage in the eleventh round. It took a few years for this rematch to happen, this time in San Francisco.

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, others eyed Fitzsimmons’s thirst for revenge.

Rumor had it that the challenger was so determined to prevail, he planned to load his gloves with Plaster of Paris.

“Let him do it,” said Jeffries. “I’ll flatten him anyway.”

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Despite this,

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took the fight to the champion in the early rounds and

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. As early as the second, Jeffries was bleeding from the challenger’s sharp punches, which soon broke Jeffries's nose and opened deep cuts around both eyes. But Jeffries was nothing if not tough, and he waited patiently for his opportunity to strike back.

It came in the eighth round. After several blistering exchanges, Fitzsimmons inexplicably paused, lowered his guard, and spoke to Jeffries, taunting him. The champion’s response was a hard right to the belly followed by a thunderous left hook that put Fitzsimmons on the floor and ended the fight. When the challenger later approached the champion to congratulate him, Jeffries regarded Fitzsimmons through swollen, bleeding eyes and said, “You’re the most dangerous man alive.” Anyone looking at the combatants’ faces would have been astonished to learn the unmarked fighter was the loser,

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.

It was later revealed that instead of gauze wraps, the Cornishman had used electrical tape. No objections had been made at the time.

The manner of the bout’s sudden conclusion struck some in the assembled crowd as suspicious.

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, though both boxers dismissed such speculation as absurd. “The fight was won fairly and to the best man belongs the laurels,” declared Fitzsimmons.

Notes

• Jeffries was a 10 to 4 favorite.
• The arena in which the fight took place was an octagonal building that could seat between 8,000 and 10,000. It was located at the corner of Valencia and Fourteenth streets, and had entrances at Valencia and Jessie streets. It had been recently built by the San Francisco Athletic Club.
• Ticket prices were $5, $7.50, $10, $15 and $20.
• The gate was $31,880.
• Jeffries' purse was $14,346 and Fitzsimmons' was $9,564.
• The San Francisco Athletic Club made $7,970. Out of its share, the club had to pay the expenses of the fight, including $500 for the referee.
• The Mansfield Newsreported the following:

Robert Fitzsimmons has forfeited his last claim upon the heavyweight championship of the world. He stood off James J. Jeffries for eight rounds, and before receiving his quietus had astonished the thousands of spectators by his brilliant work. As early as the second round Fitzsimmons had Jeffries bleeding profusely from mouth and nose. Again and again he landed on his bulky opponent, getting away in such a clever manner that he roused the big crowd to enthusiastic cheering.

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But the 8th round came and after a series of hot exchanges Fitzsimmons paused with his guard down and spoke to the champion. The latter's reply was two terrific blows that saved him the championship.

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Fleischer attended Jeffries vs Johnson and was at ringside for the bout.

Fleischer knew Fitz and Corbett well but never saw either fight. Instead he saw both when they boxed exhibitions post retirement.

Fleischer rated Johnson no 1 and Jeffries no 2 all time.

 

Well, it is tedious to recopy quotes from a 700 page biography. I think that those who have read Adam Pollack are impressed with his thorough research.

on this issue

"Although a slight majority felt that Corbett would have won a decision had it lasted the distance, there was no consensus." (p. 390)

"The WORLD said that opinions differed markedly regarding who would have won had the fight gone the distance." (P. 392)

Off Pollack's round by round report, Corbett was knocked down in both the 19th and 22nd rounds and was fading fast in the latter stages of the bout.

Adam Pollack is the best source I have found so far with a huge number of papers quoted. I will go with his conclusion as being the best available.

*by the way, it does seem that Corbett landed many more punches, something like 3 or 4 to 1, but also that most were jabs and slaps and had little impact, while Jeff's body blows were brutal and badly weakened Corbett.

 

If the issue here is the weights, Pollack notes that there were no weigh-ins but Fitz was known for giving what ringsiders considered laughably low figures for his weight. The consensus of observers was that he was around 170 lbs. give or take a pound or two. Jeff was thought to be between 205 and 210 for this fight. Forty pounds seems a reasonable estimate of the size differential.

 

No one is denying Jeff's size was critical. Least of all Jeffries himself. From Adam Pollack:

Jeffries--"I was so much bigger and heavier than he was that I knew I would wear him out and win in the end." p. 535

and "I'll have to give it to Fitz for being the best old man in the world. He certainly gave me the hardest run for eight rounds I have had in my career." p. 535

as for Fitz--"I don't think I ever punched anyone harder than I did him in the first four rounds, but he kept coming back. There is no one in the world who has a chance against him." p. 537

and ringsider Joe Gans--"Fitz could have licked anyone else in the world last night. His punch was enough to put anyone away barring the man he met. People don't seem to recognize what a marvel of strength that Jeffries is." p. 552

"fix"

Considering how hard and often Fitz hit Jeff, and the damage he did, this "fix" talk has to be the most absurd in boxing history. In the US a TV producer was recently caught on tape admitting his network ran "bullsh-t" stories to get ratings. Papers back then also ran "bullsh-t" stories to sell papers. As the producer put it, "Journalistic ethics are adorable, but this is a business."

 

My view on size--there is on youtube a film of a cape buffalo fighting a rhino. The whole thing comes to a bad end for the buffalo. The rhino is just too big and strong for him. The bottom line is that the buffalo probably weighs about 1500 lbs. and the rhino a couple of tons.

Now we can all speculate on how the buffalo would have done p4p if he were as big as the rhino, or fantasize about how the rhino would do against a T-Rex,

but there is a bottom line. We live in a real world. A man is limited to a given time and the world of that time. as are the rhino and the buffalo. Heavyweight boxing is an unlimited division. p4p prowess has nothing to do with it. There is no extra credit for being small nor a penalty for being big.

Jeff being big was only a fact of life in his world, as the rhino being big is in its world.

 

When so and so was fought in their career might be an issue.

But I'm sorry. In heavyweight boxing, if two men fight the same 170 lb. fighter, a guy who weighs 180 or so gets no extra credit for beating him versus a guy who weighs 215.

As I said in the earlier post, in heavyweight boxing there is no credit for being small and no penalty for being big.