If shavers had managed ed to drop Ali, would he be rated as high as foreman in the 70 s?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Jul 1, 2017.


  1. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Shavers actually rocked Ali on a few occasions in their fight , but what if he'd managed to score a kd?
    He isn't koing Muhammad, that s for certainty, but dropping him isn't beyond belief. And if he did..that puts him in a a very selective group. Only Frazier and perhaps maybe? Wepner. So would a kd against the solid chin of Muhammad Ali put Shavers above or at least level with Foreman? Shavers never won the title, George did, but dropping a Ali just a couple of years after the rumble, would that look a lot better on Earnies resume? I realise Cooper and Banks dropped him also but the older solid Ali seemed more durable. In effect only Frazier really can claim a credible kd of Muhammad in his second career.
     
  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    No, not even close. Even hurting Ali a few times confirms his immense power.
     
  3. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No change whatsoever. Shavers was always known as a huge puncher without much stamina or defense. Knocking Ali down with the power he had would be no huge surprise. The real surprise of that fight was that Shavers lasted 15 rounds. He did so by conserving himself and in turn lost the potential of winning a decision.
     
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  4. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If he can and did drop Ali like you imagined then you can't say for certain that he couldn't have KOed Ali as well. Maybe the knockdown was so dramatic that Ali couldn't beat the count?

    You Ali worshippers can't have it both ways.
     
  5. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Ali could be dropped but no one ever finished the job. That's a proven fact. Shavers also dropped Holmes but he recovered. Can't see it being any different to if he'd dropped Ali. Otherwise I'd have had the thread saying, how close did shavers come to knocking out Muhammad. Frazier smashed him to the canvas but he still got up.
     
  6. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    Every common opponent between them claimed shavers hit harder. In every case shavers performed better or equal to foreman with the exception of their bouts with lyle.

    -norton: shavers stopped him 1 round sooner. Norton said he hit harder.

    -young: shavers by ko, foreman gets dropped and loses the decision. Young said shavers hit the hardest even over lyle, cooney, etc.

    -Ali: shavers goes 15 and rocks Ali hard, Foreman gets stopped in 8. Ali said shavers hit harder.

    -leroy caldwell: they both stop him in 2. Whats interesting is Leroy emphatically stated shavers was the hardest puncher he faced and that foreman and lyle were "about the same" but that shavers hit harder than them both put together!

    -although holmes didnt fight foreman he said shavers hit harder than everyone he fought including mercer, tyson, cooney, and smith.

    -Lyle: emphatically stated in a lengthy interview that shavers hit harder. Shavers dropped lyle in the 2nd but couldnt capitalize and lost by ko in the 6th. Foreman and lyle exchanged kds in a back and forth war with foreman getting the ko. Lyle made a good observation that shavers was a great puncher but not a great "finisher" (theres a difference). Shavers lacked foremans granite chin and killer instinct and thats what made the difference.

    Jimmy Ellis said Shavers hit him the hardest. He was koed by shavers.

    Roy Williams: shavers was the only man to ko the 6'5 super heavyweight philly fighter.

    Joe Bugner fought shavers, lyle, frazier, ali, cooper, and stated shavers hit him the hardest. He said Lyle was a close 2nd.

    Randall Cobb, who had one of the most amazing chins at HW (he had only been stopped once in 51 bouts when he was past his prime), praised shavers as the hardest hitter he faced.

    You can dismiss these stats, quotes, and observations all you want but its pretty obvious shavers hit harder than foreman and is likely one of the top 10 hitters of all time.
     
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  7. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I lived all through the Ali era. I cheered AGAINST Ali in every single one of his bouts. I waited patiently for one of the huge punchers of that era to knock him out. Never happened. Ali had a chin of iron and tremendous will to win. Even at a point where he was ripe for the taking Shavers could not do the job. YES Ali was THAT great. Fantastic boxer combined with the toughness of a brawler.
     
  8. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    There's definitely something to be said about foreman and shavers power been alike or ones greater than the other, the thing George had going for him was his great chin. Shavers had a average one imo. But has for power, it's so close. And to think, if Norton had defended the wbc strap against Shavers instead of Holmes, then he'd have been champ. That would definitely have put him on a level playing field with Foreman.
     
  9. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    And shavers was never able to drop Ali. That is also a proven fact. Yet you can imagine Ali been dropped by Shavers even though it never happened so why is it a certainty for you that Shavers would not be able to finish the job if he did drop Ali based solely on the reasoning that Ali been stopped never happened?

    Like I said you can't have it both ways.
     
  10. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Because of the actual proven record of Ali never been stopped. Dropped yeas, but stopped no.. Banks, Cooper, smoke and wepner? Put him down but he wouldn't stay down. He denied liston, Cooper, smoke, foreman, Norton, shaver s, and even Holmes from actually ko ing him to the floor.. Out cold. So I'd say, yes he may have been dropped by shaver s but Ali would have recovered, as did Holmes.
     
  11. juppity

    juppity Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Big punchers at HW they had stamina problems. A young Foreman,
    Morrison and Shavers. The question is Where Shavers be rated if he ko Ali ?
    If he did he would of course be rated higher but what would stop Shavers
    being rated too highly is that the argument of Ali being way past his prime
    would come up. Remember Ali next fight after Shavers was Leon Spinks.
    And remember what the press said after Ali lost this fight.
     
  12. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    What did they say? It was fixed?
     
  13. juppity

    juppity Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Leon was 10 - 1 underdog and it was voted Ring 78 Fight of the Year and
    the 15 th round the Round of the Year. Leon though was only having his
    8th pro fight.
     
  14. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    No. Foreman ad the extreme destrutction of ATG Frazier on his ledger as well as Norton not to mention a win over Lyle who stopped Shavers. Shavers also had a couple of other losses in there that Foreman didn't.
     
  15. Thread Stealer

    Thread Stealer Loyal Member Full Member

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    I don't think it would change the way Shavers was looked at. He's viewed as a huge puncher regardless of whether not he was able to drop Ali.

    Boxing is unpredictable with things like this anyway. Evander Holyfield watched a long list of heavy handed fighters in his career, and the guy who had him the most hurt from a single shot is John Ruiz (Holyfield was already weakened and tired in the third Bowe fight by the time he went down from that short right hand inside).