If tyson and Ali were to face the other s opponents, who would they lose to first?

No. But he could with fast upper body movement, fast hands, power. Sonny was no slickster and his neither his hands nor his feet were the fastest.

Let's not make out Sonny was some unbeatable monster. He tended to face men some 20-30lbs smaller than Tyson. He did not have an unbreakable psyche. How long before he starts to resent being hit so hard and so often by the quicker guy? And Tyson may have been the harder puncher; certainly he was the more two handed. There are a few points wins on Sonny's resume over opponents that had no business going the distance with a destroyer of his repute.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't bet on Tyson. There are enough testaments to Liston's skills from people who know much more than me to give me that much pause for thought. But I do believe that, in Tyson, Sonny would be facing something he had never seen before - a 5'11", 220lb speed merchant with crushing power in both hands. For Tyson, Liston was nearer his own size than he was used to facing and that may have taken away some of the nerves and self doubt.

Good fight this. Real fantasy match up for the ages.

 

The problem with your analysis is Liston actually has fought guys his own size (or bigger). This narrative that hes going to be filled with doubt or fold as soon as he meets a guy his own size is not only innacurate, but ironic. Once tyson stopped fighting tomato cans he struggled with the big strong guys who could jab and use uppercuts.

Remind you of someone?

 

I never said Sonny would be filled with doubt. I said that maybe Tyson would not be quite so intimidated by Sonny as people seem to think when he realised that Sonny was much the same size as himself, an advantage he rarely enjoyed.

I did say Sonny seldom fought anyone his own size (weight). I stand by that although am perfectly happy to be proven wrong. Outside of Cleveland Williams, which top 210lb plus fighters did Sonny fight?

And Tyson fought a few big guys who, while not top tier heavyweights, could jab and use uppercuts. Pinklon, Biggs, Tucker, Bruno, Bonecrusher, Tubbs, Stewart, Razor Ruddock, even Larry Holmes though I accept that was far from the best version of Larry.

I honestly think Tyson was the more proven out of the two against big heavyweights, especially at three or four years into his career when he used explosive speed to go through bigger men like shite through a goose. And that is when we are making this match up. Outside of Douglas, I don't recall too many guys giving him problems until he was well into his post-prison career and I would not expect that version of Tyson to do well against Sonny.

 

In regards to this thread, we are talking about the version of Liston that Ali beat twice aren't we?

 

We are, Ken. Which makes Tyson's task somewhat less formidable, imo.

 

I would agree, Eddie. Even at Liston's peak I would have given Tyson the edge over him. This version of Liston even more so.

 

Yes sonny was a similar "weight" to tyson but their dimensions were very different. Liston was 2' taller with an 84' reach. As for intimidation, you must be joking. Liston wrote the book on intimdation, Tyson was a pale imitation in that department. He idolized Liston and would likely cave under the pressure if anything.

Liston fought several men who were taller and/or heavier than him and was never intimidated. In fact, he flattened all of them:

Chuck wepner 6'5 228 lbs
Amos Lincoln 6'2 210 lbs
Henry Clark 6'3 215 lbs
Bill McMurray 6'4 210 lbs
Gerhard Zech 6'5 226 lbs
Cleveland Williams 6'3 215 lbs (2x)
Nino Valdes 6'3 211 lbs
Mike Dejohn 6'2 1/2 202 lbs

Liston was 6'1 and usually around 210-215 in his prime only occasionally weighing 220. On 9 seperate occasions Liston entered the ring with a man taller than him who was equal and/or greater than him in sheer weight. The fact he won every single one of these bouts by brutal stoppage indicates he would not be the least bit intimidated by a man with a size or weight advantage and has the skill to prove he can overcome those challenges.

The examples you gave of a big strong heavy with a jab and uppercut Tyson faced, the only ones who really count are Pinklon thomas and Razor Ruddock. Tubbs was fat, inconsistent, and feather fisted idk why you thought that would be a good example to bring up on how tyson could beat liston. Biggs was a good amateur but a terrible professional. You said it yourself Holmes was an old man. Bruno was in all honesty European level and never a true world class heavy. He got stopped every time he stepped up and in his fights with Tyson he hardly fought and just wanted to survive and clinch. Tucker had a broken hand and still managed to be competitive and landed good solid uppercuts.

That leaves Thomas and Ruddock. Ruddock had no defense at all, poor stamina, and neglected his right hand. Besides, his specialty was a LEFT uppercut, not a right. The best example is Thomas honestly and thats closest youll get to a sonny liston type on the 80's, ill give u that.

If you watch the thomas fight Tyson was very frustrated and couldnt get past the jab for several rounds. Thats very telling.

You cant dismiss the douglass fight he was an undefeated world champ in his 20's. Douglass was a big strong heavy with a powerful jab and uppercut, exactly how youd drscribe liston. Granted douglass used more lateral movement and might have had more speed but you cant just gloss over these comparisons. He kept tyson at the end of his jab for half a dozen rounds.

 

Come on now, Glass. You've taken apart all of Tyson's opponents and been extremely critical while listing those weighing above 200lbs that Sonny fought as if they were a roster of worldbeaters. Chuck Wepner's nickname was based on his ability to bleed.

I dismissed the Douglas fight because this thread compares the careers of Ali and Tyson. Ali fought Liston three and a half years into his career so that's the Tyson we are pitting against him; one that was three and a half years in. That would be around the time he beat Michael Spinks. Most contemporary reporters were talking about Tyson as one of the best ever already at that point.

The Tyson of the Douglas fight which you won't dismiss was 5 years in. Ali at that point was defending his title in 1 round, with a punch that would barely have broken an egg. But his opponent lay on the floor, staggered around and needed smelling salts afterwards. To quote yourself, 'remind you of someone?'

 

When Tyson fought Holyfield he was around 30 years old, Ali had slipped a lot by this time because of the 3 year lay off compared to the shape Evander was in, Bowe just too powerful in the third fight and he was having problems with his heart, if the fight went on long which it would because of Ali`s great chin then the heart thing could kick in but Evander looked great early on against Tyson who was awful apart from the 3rd round. Maybe Ali was still quicker than Holy at that stage of his career because of how well he went on to fight against Norton in the 2nd fight but Ali tired badly in that fight which I think would cost him against this version of Holy, I think you were being harsh using the term shopworn. Holyfield at this stage would have wiped the floor with a 37 year old Holmes. Liston was far better than Ruddock was against Tyson, he was basically a one handed fighter at that stage.

 

Holyfield to 'wipe the floor with a 37 year old Holmes"? He barely beat him when they fought where Larry was 43.

 

Holmes wouldn`t fight when he met Holy he was just spoiling and waiting to counter punch and I thought the judges had Holy miles ahead. Holmes couldn`t even beat McCall because he was so shot! Bruno beat McCall and Holy would have beat both of them in the same night! How do you think Holmes would have done against Riddick Bowe the year Holy beat him? The 37 year old Holmes would have been destroyed by Bowe no matter what his weight was. Holmes was scared of Tyson.

 

I cant see Frazier getting out of the first few rounds against Tyson. One has to warm up before he starts smoking and the other is the fastest and most savage starter in the history of boxing. Hes getting took out befor he knows it joe imo. All down to style

 

Your last sentence ive found to be true...Always a bit over friendly with Mike face to face, when I seen him interviewing him over the years, not like normal Holmes...Taking nowt away from him, but its caught my attention in the past.

 

Nobody destroys Tyson. His chin stops that from happening. People gauge how Tyson would do v Foreman because of Frazier fight and cus's opinion....Frazier hasn't Tysons chin, and it takes too long for him to warm up....Without the rose tinted glasses on truth betold Tyson fought big punchers and better skilled big punchers than Foreman...Also bigger men. Tyson couldn't be hurt when he was fresh, it never happened prime. Lewis had a more powerful right hand than foreman, Tyson took it all night till the end. The end could be in round 1 when we talk frazier

 

Ali:

I do not think it far fetched that the post FOTC Ali might lose to Evander Holyfield in two fights.

Maybe he dodges that bullet, and maybe he doesn't.

Either way, the Ali of the Spinks fight, is going to be hopelessly over matched against Lewis.

Tyson:

It is by no means certain that Tyson would get past Liston in the first place, but Liston's shoulder injury would likely win it for him if he brought his A game.

He likely looses the plot not long after, and ends up losing to somebody like Terrell, in a shock upset.