Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Kovalev would KO Marciano and Dempsey of course.
Just has to pump out 3 piston like jabs, and they'll react like cavemen seeing an iPhone.

 

So are you saying its okay to lose to sub 200-pound men and still be an ATG? I think that is what you're saying, yet you continue to critique Jeffries for facing them, who unlike Louis, Dempsey and Johnson di not lose and get KO'd by sub 200-pound men.

I still see a disconnect here. And you don't seem to be changing...

If Willard or Abe Simon were around in Jeffries time, he'd pound them too, possibly finishing them in fewer punches as Dempsey and Louis seemed to tee off on these two. I have not see the punch stats, but Dempsey must have landed 100 shots on a defenseless Willard, and Louis pounded on Simon for may rounds. Marciano on average took just a bit over 9 rounds in his title fights.

Define more destructiveness? Jeffries broke bones, sent people to the hospital / sick bed, and had his share of 10 counts.

I think at this point its time to clear up if Jeffries could hit and how he hurt people. Testimoliams form those where were there. A racists like the poster McVey won't understand this, but I think you will

Let me know what your think of the below Rich:

He was massive in size with large arms, shoulders, neck, head, and legs. But, at the same time, he was sinewy, shapely, and muscular. In spite of his huge size, he moved on springy, bouncy legs. He could run 100 yards in a little over ten seconds and high jump over six feet. John L. Sullivan called him "the fastest big man I ever saw in the ring" (see Willoughby 1970 p 362).

Old-time referee Billy Roche described Jeffries as having the "acrobatic springiness of a circus tumbler in his legs. He was no lumbering ox, anchored to one spot, but a natural athlete" (see McCallum 1975 p 11).

Testimonies to Jeffries' strength are numerous.

Houston (1975 p 15) said, "There was nothing fancy about James J. Jeffries. He was a die-hard fighter of the old school, relying on his considerable strength and durability to bring him victory." He added that Jeffries had a "bear-like" appearance in his slightly crouched stance, was almost impossible to hurt or discourage, and delivered clubbing blows that took their toll. He also said "If Jeffries could not outbox an opponent, he could certainly outlast the best of them."

Odd (1974 p 18) said that Jeffries was the strongest of the heavyweight champions in both hitting power and build.

Carpenter (1975 p 34) called Jeffries a bull of a man out of the California iron foundries who traded on strength.

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Grombach (1977 p 50) said Jeffries was a natural puncher who was so big and powerful that he could deliver damaging blows from an almost extended left-hand that did not have to travel more than a few inches.

Keith (1969 p 127) asserted, "Jeffries probably owned the deadliest left hook the prize ring has ever known."

Tex Rickard, famed fight promoter, said "There's no style to him, but he's the hardest hitter I ever saw. And that includes Dempsey" (see McCallum 1975 p 15; Durant 1976 p 47).

Diamond (1954 p 60) described Jeffries, "he was something more than a mere slugger. He was a rough, tough battler, with a mighty punch."

Sports columnist Ned Brown, said, "He was one of the most powerfully built, could take a solid punch, and had acquired a fair amount of boxing skill by the time he tangled with Jim Corbett in their second match. Jeff had as deadly wallop as any I've ever seen" (see McCallum 1975 p 12).

Cooper (1978 p 107) remarked, "James J. Jeffries was one of the ring's indestructibles" and asserted, "Apart from having a punch that might have knocked a horse out, Jeffries' greatest asset was sheer patience."

W.W. Naughton (1902 p 122) recorded, "To sum up his qualities of ringmanship, it may be said that he is fairly talented in every branch of self-defense. He boxes cleverly, defends himself well and strikes a hard blow. But, back of all these are the qualities which have made him a champion, to wit, magnificent strength and wonderful endurance."

Durant and Bettmann (1952 p 122) state that Jeffries was a fighting champion, putting his title on the line to anyone who deserved a crack at it. All the good men he fought prior to becoming champion received a title shot.

Edgren (1926 p 56) said he even offered to fight Fitzsimmons, Corbett, and Sharkey - all on the same night - but they refused.

Jess Willard said, "Jim Jeffries was a great, big, rugged fella, hard t'beat." He added, "Very tough man ... Jeffries in his prime would lick anybody - he did!" (see Suster 1994 p 31).

Tom Sharkey asserted "Jeffries would have licked Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis on the same night. He was strong as a bull and quick on his feet like a cat" (see Diamond 1954 p 62).

McCallum (1974 p 47) described Jeffries as "big, strong and hard as granite" and said if he "wasn't the greatest heavyweight who ever fought certainly he stands out as one of the more formidable."

High Fullerton (1929, Foreword) wrote, "James J. Jeffries was the greatest heavyweight fighter in the history of the ring. A huge, hairy mountain of a man, fast with the deceptive speed of a grizzly, seemingly stolid, almost sullen, he was the least known of the great champions - and the most misunderstood."

John J. Romano (Everlast 1931 p 93) wrote, "Jeff is sometimes referred to as the greatest of them all, and his record certainly justifies the title."

Dan Morgan, fighter and manager for over forty years, called Jeffries his "Champion of Champions", and firmly believed Jeff would whip all the others (see McCallum 1975 pp 11 12).

 

You're a sad man, a racist and a senile old fool. I should hope when I reach your age I don't spend my hours arguing on the web, only to be proven wrong and a @ss. I tell you to get a new act, but it's doubtful you have one.

Hart wasn't among the greatest, but history remembers him. He is in the boxing hall of fame. He won the title and before that was good enough to beat a prime Jack Johnson in a high-stakes elimination match, as mentioned by your hero that you only quote selectively when it suits your agenda in Adam Pollack.

 

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Positives of Jeffries

1---Did not lose until 35 and having laid off six years

2---beaten only then by the all-time great Jack Johnson, and note that Johnson, unlike the Tunney who beat Dempsey, or the Schmeling who beat Louis, would rate as a great heavyweight even if he had never fought Jeffries. Johnson's greatness does not rest on beating Jeffries.

3---never lost to a man under 200 lbs. This point has been mentioned but Jeff's critics jump past it rather quickly to focus on his weight pulls. I think all other atg claimants, save Marciano, up to Joe Frazier in the 1970's, lost to someone under 200 lbs. Jeff never did.

4---never went the distance with anyone who wasn't a highly regarded contender. Went the distance with Ruhlin, Choynski, Sharkey (2), and Armstrong. Armstrong would be the least of these men, but even he would probably have been a top ten contender if they had ratings in his day. Almost all the other big punchers went the distance with lesser lights.

5---despite all the criticism of his punching power, off box rec, KO'd 16 of 22 opponents, for a percentage of .727. Sonny Liston KO'd 39 of 54 opponents for a percentage of .722. Few question Liston's power. One might focus on the scheduled length of the fights, but a rebuttal would be that Jeff knew the length and was pacing himself. Another point is that the percentage of his total fights which were against top men is much higher than most champions. There is little padding in his record.

6---unlike the other white American atg claimants, save Marciano, fought a good cross section of the best black heavyweights of his time.

Negatives

1---wouldn't have been the same in later eras. Perhaps, but this is guesswork. And it is also guesswork that any of the other atg would have transferred successfully into other eras.

2---really didn't do anything to augment his legacy after his second fight with Fitz in 1902. He was only 27 then. His last two wins were with the aging Corbett, and the mediocre Munroe. His last winning fight was at the young age of 29. With Johnson and Hart available as opponents, a couple of more fights might have made his atg postion unassailable if he could have pulled off wins, and observers of the time would certainly have favored him over Hart and even Johnson.

3---the general level of boxing skill and the size of the talent pool increased markedly after Jeff's era. Jeff fought at a time when boxing was active only in part of the British Empire and the United States. Latin America and Europe would be producing top heavyweights by the 1920's.

Negatives I don't agree with

1---Jeff was a big man in an era of small men. Not relevant in heavyweight boxing.

 

This point I think has to be challenged.

The limited data that we have available, suggests that the boxing talent pool in North America, was far larger before the First World War than it was in the 1990s.

Given that this is the only data that we seem to have, all the evidence would point to Jeffries having presided over a much larger talent pool than we have in subsequent eras.

 

ATG is a terrible term, no one is a literal All Time Great!

But in context Jeffries clearly is. Arguably the first American worldwide hero, the fight was Johnson is still arguably the biggest fight ever.

His resume as a Heavyweight is perfectly OK for an ATG Heavyweight; Jackson, Corbett and Fitzsimmons may have been past their bests, but all three were still respected when James J got the job done over them.

 

The word is RACIST.Since I have may arm around a Black man, trainer Jimmy Glenn , in my avatar I am obviously not a racist,unless you believe I am prejudiced against my own race,the White Race? You get stupider every day. Apart from fracturing one of Sharkey's ribs which bones of his opponents did Jeffries break?
He bruised Fitz's ribs but did not crack any according to Gilbert Odd.
Which fighters did he put into "sickbeds"? What is a TESTIMOLIAM?

Ninety percent of those comments come from men who never saw Jeffries fight!As such they are no more valid than the opinion of anyone here!

"Jack Johnson is the greatest fighter that ever lived"! Tex Rickard July 5th 1910.
Hugh Fullerton was the idiot who said Jeffries lost to Johnson because he drank drugged tea! And Jeffries put his name to the lie!
You want to quote Gerald Suster? How about this?
" In his second defence in1900 Jeffries faced his former boss Gentleman JimCorbett.Although Corbett was 35 he stabbed Jeffries silly crouch or no.By round twenty Corbett had won it handily." page 34.
"By the 1920's when his autobiography was published,he's convinced himself that prior to the Johnson fight he'd been deliberately poisoned.It was sad"page 38 ." Champions Of The Ring ",Gerald Suster.
Gerald Suster's top ten
1.Ali.Then in no order .Johnson,Dempsey,Louis,Tunney,Marciano,Foreman,Liston,Frazier,Holmes

No Jeffries there!

Henry Cooper?
The Five Top Heavyweights.In no order Ali,Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Johnson."The Great Heavyweights" .Henry Cooper
No Jeffries there!

Ring Magazine May 2017.
1.Ali
2.Louis.
3.Johnson
4.Marciano
5.Holmes
6.Dempsey
7.Foreman
8.Frazier
9.Tyson
10 . Liston
No Jeffries there! And no Jeffries prominent in many, many others lists I produced. Including Sports Illustrated,Boxing Illustrated,Boxing News, The Ring.Nigel Collins,,Herbert Goldman,Bert Sugar,etc.

 

The Johnson v Hart fight was not an elimination fight. Jeffries had already stated publicly and in print that in the event of Johnson winning he would refuse to defend against him,no argument it is a matter of public record.
Being in the Hall Of Fame is a question of popularity not greatness ,silly Tw*ts like you pay a few dollars so they can say they are IBRO Members as if that means anything?
My question was is he an all time great? The answer is NO.
You will be spending the rest of your life trying to convince anyone who will listen that Jim Jeffries ,Wladimir Klitschko ,and Vitali Klitschko are absolutely wonderfull all time greats, all the while denigrating Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier,you are just an ignorant racist C***.

 

The word is RACIST.Since I have my arm around a Black man, trainer Jimmy Glenn , in my avatar I am obviously not a racist,unless you believe I am prejudiced against my own race,the White Race? You get stupider every day. Apart from fracturing one of Sharkey's ribs which bones of his opponents did Jeffries break?
He bruised Fitz's ribs but did not crack any according to Gilbert Odd and Adam Pollack.
Which fighters did he put into "sickbeds"? What is a TESTIMOLIAM?

Ninety percent of those comments come from men who never saw Jeffries fight!As such they are no more valid than the opinion of anyone here!

"Jack Johnson is the greatest fighter that ever lived"! Tex Rickard July 5th 1910.
Hugh Fullerton was the idiot who said Jeffries lost to Johnson because he drank drugged tea! And Jeffries put his name to the lie!
You want to quote Gerald Suster? How about this?
" In his second defence in1900 Jeffries faced his former boss Gentleman JimCorbett.Although Corbett was 35 he stabbed Jeffries silly crouch or no.By round twenty Corbett had won it handily." page 34.
"By the 1920's when his autobiography was published,he's convinced himself that prior to the Johnson fight he'd been deliberately poisoned.It was sad"page 38 ." Champions Of The Ring ",Gerald Suster.
Gerald Suster's top ten
1.Ali.Then in no order .Johnson,Dempsey,Louis,Tunney,Marciano,Foreman,Liston,Frazier,Holmes

No Jeffries there!

Henry Cooper?
The Five Top Heavyweights.In no order Ali,Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Johnson."The Great Heavyweights" .Henry Cooper
No Jeffries there!

Ring Magazine May 2017.
1.Ali
2.Louis.
3.Johnson
4.Marciano
5.Holmes
6.Dempsey
7.Foreman
8.Frazier
9.Tyson
10 . Liston
No Jeffries there! And no Jeffries prominent in many, many others lists I produced. Including Sports Illustrated,Boxing Illustrated,Boxing News, The Ring.Nigel Collins,,Herbert Goldman,Bert Sugar,etc.

 

Jackson had no business in a ring when he fought Jeffries.

 

He got the decision over Johnson.

 

Neither Goddard who was 40 years old ,or Everett were hospitalized after their fights with Jeffries, nor did either spend any time in sick beds ,or were bedridden for days, both quit cold and were severely criticized for it.

I have the round by round reports of these fights .Unlike you, I know what I am talking about and am prepared to prove it!
Fitzsimmons did not sustain broken ribs in either of the Jeffries fights, neither did Corbett,and Sharkey had one rib fractured not 3, neither did he break Sharkey's nose,all information that is readily available to find by anyone interested in what really happened in these fights.