Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Ruhlin wasnt a "highly regarded contender," when he drew with Jeffries, basically he was like Jeffries a novice he had 8 fights and had lost two of them one by ko to sparring partner quality type Yank Kenney.

 

Says who? Munroe was 215 pounds, Kennedy likely over 200, Jackson 200 by his own words. These three combined lasted but 7 rounds. So you learned something.

Hitting and hurting 200-215 pound men was easy for Jeffries once he hit his prime, but Rich I must know this.

Are chins better at 245 than 200? History in many examples would say no.

 

Goddard was a moving up fight, and a former name. Jeffries took it easy on him.

Everett then 22-3 ( age 23 ) with no stoppage losses was in his prime, and prove to me he was not as I said. You can't & won't! Jeffries easily beat him.

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The odd thing is later a shop worn Everett ( on a bad losing ) took Jack Johnson the distance in a fight that was ruled a draw! So you might want to be careful what you say about him otherwise your agenda shall suffer

Sharkey was badly battered, I see your backing off on his more well documented injures. At any rate who did Jeffries put down for a 10 count the amount of opponents who left the ring injured compares favorable to big punchers..like Foreman, Louis and Liston.

 

It looks like your hand in is the downstairs region, cut off in that photo.

You are an angry type, who never misses an opportunity to be derogatory toward accomplished white heavies such as Jeffries, Marciano, and the Klitschko's. Hmmm, I wonder why.

Anyone one who is objective on the facts with Jack Johnson that doesn't put him in a golden light quickly set your off. He's your power symbol, but in fact, he was the worst offender of the color line, beat up women and the sick, and broke many laws, not to mention contracts.

If I were to guess your politics, it would be racial left....who else would give their money to an organization who abuses human rights for their own cause. And cut the crap, you knew where the money was going, so save us the spin.

As for Jeffries, he's #1-#5 on many lists, but like I said those doing the ratings aren't familiar with his career, and the lack of film makes it easy to forget anyone.

 

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Ruhlin was a highly regarded contender during his career though. Both he and Jeffries were young, but Ruhlin had won against Steve O'Donnell, which was a substantial scalp at that point.

 

Well, first, one of my points is that the talent pool expanded geographically, with Europe and Latin America getting into boxing. They weren't in Jeff's day. There was no Firpo, Schmeling, Uzcudun, Carpentier, Carnera, Goday, Valdes, or Johansson, as there would be from the 1920's through the 1950's, and even moreso later.

But just on the US, the population increased, folks moved from farms to the cities where there were gyms and trainers, and boxing got much more popular (and legal). Hard for me to see the talent pool just in America was not expanding through the 1920's to the 1950's,

but I would be very interested in your counter-evidence.

 

I do not entirely agree with this. I think that you get a much broader geographical spread among the contenders in Sullivan's era, than you do in many later eras. The rise of the European scene excluding Britain and Ireland is perhaps a post 1900 phenomenon, but the general trend was for the talent pool to become much more America orientated.

Estimating the global talent pool is extremely difficult, but there have been studies done on the number boxing matches and boxing cards, in inner city areas. On study points to 1913 being the busiest period in the sports history, a mere ten years after Jeffries last title defense. If this is the only data that we have on the matter, then it would be entirely unwarranted to assume that Jeffries fought in a shallow talent pool, and the implication would be that he might well have fought in a very deep talent pool

 

Jackson was 195lbs ,Tom Sharkey said, " he is a has been,and letting him fight in his condition after so many years of dissipation is a sin". Jeffries himself said," he was a shell." Munroe was fat as a photo of him with Jeffries shows.
Neither he or Jeffries was in top shape .Jeffries knew he didn't need to be.

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Kennedy was a sparring partner type usually around 190lbs he was not in shape for Jeffries, having not had adequate time to train.

"Kennedy was said to be more than thirty .pounds above his normal fighting weight, but he did not show it. He had evidently trained as well as the limited time at his disposal would allow, but he could not wlthstand Jeffries'"

"Jeffries looked in fine shape," reported the Daily True American, which was less complimentary of the champion's opponent. "Kennedy was in fair shape, but pretty fat," the newspaper stated, "and it seemed as though he might have been better fit to fight the champion of the world had he weighed about fifteen pounds less."

• The San Francisco Call reported the following on September 23, 1901" It was just a warm up 4 rounder prior to the Ruhlin fight, as Kennedy was not considered suitable as a title challenger. Ruhlin was the only biggish man of any quality Jeffries beat and he had been wrecked by Fitz a year earlier.Not Jeffries fault but the facts, so stop with the spin it doesn't convince anyone.

 

He was not a highly regarded contender when he first fought Jeffries ,he had been stopped by Bob Fitzsimmons sparring partner Yank Kenney and beaten by erratic Peter Maher ,4 of his 6 wins were over debutees! Another was over Con Tobin whose record was 0-2-0 .O Donnell had lost 3 of his last 5 fights.

 

Goddard 40 years old quit, he took his gloves off after the third round and his corner threw in the sponge only to be ordered to continue or else the fight would be declared a No Decision and nobody would get paid. As usual you don't know what the f*ck you are talking about. I have the round by round summary of this and the Everett fight, both men quit without absorbing any punishment and both were heavily criticized for it. Your lurid stories of one being hospitalized and the other being bed ridden for several days are total bullsh*t! First they are badly beaten up now Jeffries took it easy on them! Which is it? I know the truth and am prepared to produce the round by rounds summaries of both fights how about you?


I can prove it and you know I can. Id challenge you to a wager but we both know you don't honour your bets.

 

I see the first Jeffries Ruhlin fight as a bout that was significant for who they would both later become.

Not hard to see why they had to rematch when Jeffries was champion, and Ruhlin later became a contender.

 

A waitress took that photo in Jimmy's Corner Bar Upper 44th St. NY a mecca for boxing fans . You are making a homosexual implication about a world class boxing trainer whose reputation is impeccable,he has a son in his late 50s! .What sort of a scum sucking pig are you? This thread is not about Jack Johnson, it is about Jim Jeffries and whether he was an ATG.
Jack Dempsey is my favourite fighter ,what colour is he you f*cking cr*t*n? I gave money to the ANC when Nelson Mandela was its President. I joined it and I'm proud of that fact, just as Muhammad Ali,Riddick Bowe,Lennox Lewis and Eddie Futch etc were proud to meet him. Joe Frazier gave Mandela his World Championship belt did you know that ,you bigoted a*sehole?
Ray Leonard also presented Mandela with one of his Championship Belts

[Mandela and De Klerk won the Nobel peace prize in1993, did you know that you ignorant jerk?]
.They were very proud to have met him

You, being a red neck racist would not want to have done so.

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QUOTE="janitor, post: 18650218, member: 3871"]I see the first Jeffries Ruhlin fight as a bout that was significant for who they would both later become.

Not hard to see why they had to rematch when Jeffries was champion, and Ruhlin later became a contender.[/QUOTE]
My point is Ruhlin had only 8 fights.
Had lost 2 of them ,5 of his 6 wins were over 4 men who hadn't fought before the other was over a man with a record of 0-2-0 and one of his 2 losses was to a Fitzsimmons sparring partner and by ko! No way can anyone dress that up as the record of a contender!

 

I am by no means certain that Ruhlin did only have eight fights, but his status relative to the division at the time is fairly clear.