Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

He was a novice end of.

 

Matt Donnellon who posts on ESB now and then and knows more than most about this era, drew up his opinion of the top ten heavyweights yearly ratings going back to the Sullivan era.

Here is his top ten for 1897

Champion---Fitz
2---Maher
3---Sharkey
4---Choynski
5---Childs
6---Corbett
7---Ruhlin
8---Jeffries
9---O'Donnell
10--Armstrong

Hard to see Maher with a record of 109-5-2 up to this time as inconsistent. He had lost once early in his career, and then only to Jackson, Fitz (2), and Joe Goddard.

O'Donnell had KO wins over Jake Kilrain and Frank Slavin.

*I don't think the records of fights in the 1890's are anything like complete. Reformers were actually organizing boycotts of newspapers which covered boxing, and also of their advertisers.

I bumped a thread which includes Matt's ratings from 1892 to 1923. Jeff is pretty impressive fighting the top men. The one he missed I would say is Maher.

 

Okay, I have no stats to contradict you, but it is really hard for me to buy that boxing was more popular and common in the USA in 1913 than in the 1920's or 1930's or 1940's or 1950's. It was illegal in a lot of states, including Illinois and therefore Chicago. No doubt it was gaining popularity though.

 

To keep it simple, depending on how you feel about the strength of his era, it's perfectly reasonable to have him in your top 10 heavyweights. His biggest hurdles are drawing the colour line through his reign, whilst benefitting from being physically ahead of anything that had stepped into a boxing ring before him. It's pretty silly to hold the second part against the man.

 

I've said several times his challengers being appreciably smaller and often older was not his fault,but the fact that they were ,and how long it took him to get rid of them must be considered when we are talking about evaluating him as a prospective all time great heavyweight.

 

During Jeffries reign Childs was ranked for 3 consecutive years,Martin for 4 years ,Johnson for 3 years.

 

Is it cheeky to mention it took Joshua 11 rounds to knockout the 41 year old former champ that hadn't fought in a year and a half.

 

Why would it be?

 

Comparing eras and all that jazz

 

I would say comparing a 41 yr old ATG with a PhD in fitness and clearly preserves himself very well and only showed signs of slipping while facing a 6'9" undefeated contender that was akward who fought the fight of his life while the champ was listless who took time off to consider retirement and then came back and fought a great fight with a very good young lion in a shameless loss is not the same.

40 today is the new 30 considering our knowledge in health and nutrition since the turn if the century athletes are bigger, stronger, faster and lasting longer.

 

They were, but how does Jeffries stack up against Johnson and Dempsey in meeting his top contenders? Here are the top two contenders year by year during the reigns of Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey--* for a man the champion fought sometime. ** for a man he fought as champion. Ratings by Matt Donnellon (except 1924 & 1925 from The Ring)

1899
Sharkey**
Fitz**

1900
Fitz**
Corbett**

1901
Ruhlin**
McCoy

1902
Fitz**
Ruhlin**

1903
Fitz**
Johnson*

1904
Johnson*
Hart

So Jeff only missed fighting McCoy and Hart among top two contenders during his career, and only Johnson during his title reign, but he did later fight him. Childs and Martin peaked at a #4 rating in 1901 and 1902 respectively, and both then lost and dropped in the ratings.

 

Now to Johnson

1909
Langford*
Kaufman**

1910
Langford*
Jeannette*

1911
McVey*
Langford*

1912
Langford*
Jeannette*

1913
Smith
Langford*

1914
Langford*
Jeannette*

Johnson had fought and defeated most of the top contenders before he reached the championship, and arguably before they reached their primes. He only misses Smith, but his single actual defense against a top two contender is Kaufman.

 

Now to Dempsey

1919
Wills
Fulton*

1920
Wills
Fulton*

1921
Wills
Fulton*

1922
Wills
Greb

1923
Wills
Firpo**

1924
Wills
Gibbons**

1925
Wills
Tunney**

Well, Wills certainly stands out like a sore thumb as a miss. Greb was also rated in the top two. I don't think anyone would criticize Dempsey too much for not defending against Fulton, who was beaten badly by Wills in 1920 and of course went out with the first punch from Dempsey in 1918. Greb doesn't look like a major historical miss if looking at it this way.

 

My comment would be that the irony here is that drawing the color line impacts Jeff less than it does Johnson and Dempsey. Only Johnson in 1903 and 1904 was really at the top of the division while Jeff was champ. (and he did eventually fight him)

Johnson simply didn't defend against his top contenders.

Dempsey didn't meet his top contender throughout his reign.

 

The threads about Jeffries.