Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Jeffries had more pro fights than Corbett.

 

I am not so much saying that the fight was close.

What I am saying is that Jeffries was in control past round fifteen.

He turned it around.

 

I think that Jeffries/Ryan fought a very stupid fight plan, and that this handed the initiative to Corbett.

Brady basically saved Jeffries title, by removing Ryan from the ring, and making Jeffries change tactics.

We might speculate that Jeffries could have done a lot better if he had used Brady's tactics from the start.

There is also the issue of Jeffries injury to his left arm, which seems to have been a factor then.

This is the only time that I know of, that Jeffries actually got staggered in a fight, before Jack Johnson of course.

 

Of course. Any punch to the nose hurts, but heavy punches hurt more.

These punch stats just boil down to saying three jabs overrule one hard punch in your scoring. These stats simply are not definitive.

After all, the bottom line is that Jeffries wore Corbett down and knocked him out cold.

 

"I am not saying so much that the fight was close."

No, some of the newspaper accounts imply that. It impresses me as being similar to the Louis-Conn fight. Conn was ahead but not so far ahead he could have afforded to lose the last three rounds and still win the fight. The difference seems to be that Conn was doing well until he got caught, while Corbett was weakening noticeably even before the fatal round.

 

That's a nice comparison Ed. I think it's fair to say Jeffries wouldn't have been doing much back peddling. It just seems like your classic boxer vs puncher match up, where the puncher caught up with the boxer at a point in the fight that we (the vast majority) can only imagine.

If you'd have asked me before the fight who would I like to win, purely based on styles alone, I would say Corbett. If I was writing a report on the fight, I'd likely impose the view that Corbett effectivley had the fight won, but ran out of gas against the less technically sound and more athletic fighter. I think it's this sort of attitude that has probably sold Jeffries short. The fight has a certain aura that centralises round the idea of that former champ that still has one great fight left in him, which detracts a little bit of direction away from the victor. Nevertheless the better man won in the day.

 

I'd say, judging from reports, that Jeffries started to come on a bit later than that, maybe past the 17th rd which gives Corbett a substantial early lead.Jeffries did a lot of clinching in the 15th, laying on Corbett ,trying to use his weight to tire him.
The 16th was even or Corbett's .
The 17th saw Corbett doing well early on ,then Jeffries, after taking a left hook to the jaw ,landed with a right to the body that hurt Corbett,he followed up with a left hook to the jaw that shook Corbett and they clinched in close, Jeffries pounded Corbett's kidneys with his right and the crowd shouted out foul! Jeffries was more aggressive in that round and won it according to some reporters.
Jeffries was straight into the attack in the 18th but Corbett evaded most of his punches and countered with a left hook to Jeffries damaged eye,Corbett landed several jabs to Jeffries face but the big man ignored them, most gave the round to Jeffries for his aggression, though he didn't land much, he kept Corbett busy defending and unable to land a great deal himself.

Jeffries forced the fight in the 19th but was unable to land much as Corbett blocked most of his punches.One paper said Jeffries scored a knockdown but another said Corbett went down without a clear punch being landed whichever is correct, Corbett got up and rushed Jeffries and clinched landing some jabs to close out the round.Jeffries was again punching to the kidneys and again the crowd cried out foul,this was Jeffries round.
The 20th saw Corbett on the back foot landing a few light punches while Jeffries stalked him struggling to land ,opinion was divided as to who won the round Corbett showed clever footwork and Jeffries all the aggression.

21rd Both landed left hooks to the face but Jeffries were much the heavier punches,Jeffries landed kidney punches and though Corbett was still fast he was weakening perceptibly. Fitzsimmons said Corbett seemed to be aiming for going the distance and winning on points.
22ndJeffries was on the attack again a body shot badly hurt Corbett and follow up punches had him clinching before moving away, out of danger,Jeffries landed a right to Corbett's shoulder which dropped him to one knee, he was up immediately,both landed to the body but a big left to the jaw hurt Corbett and a follow up left hook to the ribs had him shaky,Corbett replied with a light hook to Jeffries cut mouth and Jeffries pounded his kidneys with his right.Corbett made a recovery of sorts ,landing on Jeffries mouth and nose, and bringing blood from both.Jeffries finished the round strong, landing several big punches to Corbett's body and Corbett looked weak,he managed to evade some punches by clever defence but those that landed could be seen to shake him.
23rdJeffries out fast and they clinched Jeffries landed with rights to the jaw ,Corbett hung on to Jeffries .Corbett landed to nose and mouth and Jeffries began to bleed again.Jeffries landed with a body shot and Corbett backed off,coming back with left jabs on the mouth, eye, and nose followed by a right to the neck.Jeffries was spurting blood but very strong he crowded Corbett to the ropes and landed a big left to the jaw and Corbett fell down and out.

 

I repeat, that is not my scoring.

 

The sparring ko did not happen. Only Corbett says so.

Pollack was proven based by Klompton on a few things for uneven reporting.

Everett was floored multiple times, sure that is not taking punishment!

Prove to me the bed ridden injuries did not happen. Pollack research was mostly in the ring, not out of it.

 

I could have a field day on any saying why some are not.

Just to play the other side, and perhaps change your mind ( NOT HAPPENING ) I'll have a little fun even though I agree most on the list would at the top or near the top in every area. I think your just rather ignorant when it comes to Jeffries.

Ali - Floored by sub 200-pound men. Might have been KO;d by Cooper if not for the extra time and illegal smelling salts. Likely got gift win or two by the judges. Held Frazier all day to beat him in the rematch. Lost to L Spinks!

Dempsey - Ko's in one round by Fireman Flynn, lost to Meehan, did not beat top competition, ducked his 2-3 bed in Wills and Greb. Badly outclassed by Tunney and Jack wasn't that old when the match happened.

Louis - Ko'd by sub 200-pound men. Weaker completion in comparison to other all time greats. Only 2 of his 26 title defenses were vs black opponents.

Liston - Outside of a sacred Patterson, who did he really beat? Lost to Marshall, quit vs Ali.

Wlad Klitschko, Very skilled and big but had a shaky chin, probably did not beat any hall of fame fighters.

Jack Johnson. KO'd by sub 200-pound men. Quit in fights multiple times ( Shut up Mcvey, yes he did ), DQ'd for fouls, had a very easy title run avoiding the 3-4 best out there in Langford, McVey, and Jeannette. Lots of losses and draws to lesser men, not a puncher, not overly impressive on film either.

Frazier - 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman. Lots of other fighters not on your list could probably do the same or better. Caught Ali coming back when his legs were not the same. Did not have a lot of fights, and avoided many punchers.


Tunney - Very few fights at heavyweight.

Foreman - Got beat by Jimmy Young. Almost KO'd by Lyle. Not a good boxer, or very fast. Had a nice comeback, but is over rated.

Holyfield - 1-4 vs Bowe and Lewis on fair score cards. Lost to Moorer, Ko;d by a blown up middle weight, inconstant, and allegations of PED's dog his career.

Lewis - though big and skilled, he was Ko'd quickly without taking much punishment from one punch. Picked the best time for him to fight his best opponents, beating Holy and Tyson when they were older and Vitali Klitschko when he was training for a 10 round fight with a nobody, and took the match in two weeks. Did not give re-matches to Mercer, Bruno, or Vitali Klitschko.

Bowe - Outside of Holyfield, his resume is a bit thin. Badly battered by Andrew Golota who if he did not go low would be 2-0 vs Bowe.

Marciano - Reports suggest he lost the first fight to LaStarza. Fought older and smaller men, and was himself very small. Undefeated because he retired at age 32.

Tyson - Lost this legacy fights to Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis. Lacks a legacy win, unless you think Spinks qualifies.

Holmes - A fine record in his prime, but his competition isn't highly regarded.

Norton - You really think he would be on top or near the top in every era? Um NO. He would not in the 1990's. Norton was a fine boxer puncher, but had a glass jaw, and was starched early by punchers.

If I wanted to I could start a thread on any of these fighters, which brings me back to Jeffries, who you know little about and have been exposed for exactly that here.


Jeffries was moved quickly, and never lost outside of his comeback fight out of the ring 6 years, rusty, and over weight. His career needs NO excuses. Those who saw him or lived/wrote from 1890-1960 University said he was an all time great, ahead of many fighters you have on your own list!

So in closing how could Jeffries be ahead of Johnson, Marciano, Tunney, and Louis on many lists and NOT be considered an all time great??? Dago, you tell me! If you question the last sentence, I can produce several lists from historians and writers for you to read!

 

" In the Ring With James J. Jeffries is Adam Pollack's 4th book in his heavyweight champion series. It describes in meticulous detail Jeffries' bouts from the 1890s up to 1905 (including round by round accounts as well as pre- and post-fight analysis), his opponents, and his training regimen. It discusses the time's heavyweight scene, including contenders, pre-fight hype and negotiations, political and legal obstacles, and the color line. Chapters also include descriptions and analysis of Corbett-Sharkey II, Fitzsimmons-Ruhlin, Fitz-Sharkey II, and Corbett-McCoy, as well as controversies surrounding several bouts. The book is based on next day local newspaper accounts, comparing and contrasting their descriptions and analysis in order to provide an authentic view of how heavyweight boxing was perceived at the time. The use of local primary sources gives readers a rare opportunity to relive Jeffries' career as if they were reading about it at the time he was fighting. The book also includes Jeffries' career record, over 100 photos, 924 footnotes, and an index."

^^^ There you have it. Pollack has multiple sources, 924 footnotes, and an index.

Why is this not good enough? You'll never read it. I'm showing you there are tons of sources, just like you are asking for. The sources are not made up.

 

Right. I question that report, didn't it incorrectly say Corbett had two knockdowns? Lol. Most papers and Pollack say the fight was very close, so this Corbett was in the lead by a large amount is pure garbage.

Its all academic, Jeffries beat a sharp Jim Corbett in a large 25 x 25 ring without any fouls. The crowd was clearly pro-Corbett, an as the underdog I wonder if that has to do with any favorable press.

As far as amateurish, reports said Greb was amateurish. I've seen Liston being described as ponderous. ect...