Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Mendoza · Jul 10, 2017

Perry said: ↑

In the pro game today a knockdown as described would give the fighter scoring it the round. Based upon what I have read about boxing in Jeffries time it would also hold true.

Many writers have discussed the Jeffries Corbett bout over the decades. All that I have read were in agreement that Corbett was nicely ahead at fights end. This of course is no knock against Jeffries. A bout with a great boxer like Corbett in a 24 foot ring would be tough going for any slugger like Jeffries.
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The ring was 25 x 25. If scored on the 10 point must ( Jeffries ad a knockdown ), its a close fight based on papers giving detailed round by round reports, and either calling a winner or giving the reader enough info to pick the winner for the round.

The odd thing is many fights had the winner behind at some point, but for whatever reason this fight, which is not on film gets a lot of talk about it.

When needed, Jeffries switched tactics. Had the fight been 15 rounds, he switches tactics much sooner. Boxing with Corbett as his corner had his doing was not the thing to do early. Tommy Ryan, whom Jeffries had a falling out wanted this. Ryan was in Corbett's corner in the re-match and Jeffries not only punished Corbett in the re-match, he out boxed him!. By that time, Jeffries had picked up more skill. You wonder a bit if Ryan was rooting for his Irish kin in the first fight as he was a sharp guy, picking the wrong tactics.

edward morbius · Jul 10, 2017

mcvey said: ↑

I repeat, that is not my scoring.
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Fair enough. You and DW score on quantity rather than quality of punches. But not everybody does, so where do we go with rehashing a fight which Jeff won by a KO except to agree to disagree.

As I pointed out, newspapers had round scores like 8-7-5 and 9-7. That is not all THAT one-sided, although I have not seen any newspaper account which actually had Jeff ahead or even after 22 rounds.

mcvey · Jul 10, 2017

Mendoza said: ↑

Right. I question that report, didn't it incorrectly say Corbett had two knockdowns? Lol. Most papers and Pollack say the fight was very close, so this Corbett was in the lead by a large amount is pure garbage.

Its all academic, Jeffries beat a sharp Jim Corbett in a large 25 x 25 ring without any fouls. The crowd was clearly pro-Corbett, an as the underdog I wonder if that has to do with any favorable press.

As far as amateurish, reports said Greb was amateurish. I've seen Liston being described as ponderous. ect...
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The knockdowns were wrongly attributed to Corbett as is pointed out in the report.One of the knockdowns scored by Jeffries may not have been bona- fide according to different reports. Corbett was up immediately after being down ,the second kd was the result of a punch on his shoulder.

Fitzsimmons was of the opinion that Corbett should have won but paid the price of being overconfident. Kid McCoy agreed,Charley White, the referee stated that Jeffries had an up hill battle until the ko. As to fouls, Jeffries was booed in at least three rounds for deliberately targetting the kidneys and cautioned once by White for laying on Corbett ,using his superior weight to tire him out.Jeffreis made a statement that his friends told him after the fight that he was behind, but that he felt that it would have been unjust had he lost the title by decision, because he was making the fight .His manager William Brady said then, and years later in his autobiography that Jeffries was in real danger of losing the decision because he was tying to out- box Corbett and being outclassed,Brady took over the corner after the 18th round and sent Jeffries out for the ko. Please show reports that describe Greb as amateurish,I am sure we would all like to read them!

mcvey · Jul 10, 2017

edward morbius said: ↑

Fair enough. You and DW score on quantity rather than quality of punches. But not everybody does, so where do we go with rehashing a fight which Jeff won by a KO except to agree to disagree.

As I pointed out, newspapers had round scores like 8-7-5 and 9-7. That is not all THAT one-sided, although I have not seen any newspaper account which actually had Jeff ahead or even after 22 rounds.
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Jeff's corner were of the opinion that, after the 18th round he needed a ko to win,which fair play to him, he duly succeeded in getting.

edward morbius · Jul 10, 2017

I want to point out that there is a big difference between being "in danger of losing the fight" which is certainly true for Jeff in this fight,
and being so far behind that you are certain of losing if it goes the distance. Jeff was behind after 22 rounds. If Corbett rallied and finished strong, Jeff would have lost. On the other hand, if Jeff swept the last three rounds, maybe not.
That seems to be Adam Pollack's position, and it for certain is mine.

mcvey · Jul 10, 2017

Mendoza said: ↑

The sparring ko did not happen. Only Corbett says so.

Pollack was proven based by Klompton on a few things for uneven reporting.

Everett was floored multiple times, sure that is not taking punishment!

Prove to me the bed ridden injuries did not happen. Pollack research was mostly in the ring, not out of it.
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There are two different stories of Corbett dropping Jeffries in sparring one for a ko ,one for just a kd.If either were true it wouldn't change my opinion of either significantly Jeffries was a crude novice compared to Corbett at the time.
The onus is on you to provide evidence that Everett was bed ridden for weeks as the result of the Jeffries fight, just as it is for you to provide proof that Goddard was hospitalized after the Jeffries fight I know neither is correct and I have the rounds by rounds of botht fight in which neither fighter took any sort of a beating.Provide proof to back up your statements and I wll provide proof to destroy your arguments which I am certain I can easily do. Here is just a start Everett was not down multiple times at tall and I can easily prove it!
Now produce you evidence! It's called , A CHALLENGE TAKE IT UP, OR ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG!

mcvey · Jul 10, 2017

edward morbius said: ↑

I want to point out that there is a big difference between being "in danger of losing the fight" which is certainly true for Jeff in this fight,
and being so far behind that you are certain of losing if it goes the distance. Jeff was behind after 22 rounds. If Corbett rallied and finished strong, Jeff would have lost. On the other hand, if Jeff swept the last three rounds, maybe not.
That seems to be Adam Pollack's position, and it for certain mine.
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You don't want to give any weight to William Brady's opinion?

Mr.DagoWop · Jul 10, 2017

Mendoza said: ↑

I could have a field day on any saying why some are not.

Just to play the other side, and perhaps change your mind ( NOT HAPPENING ) I'll have a little fun even though I agree most on the list would at the top or near the top in every area. I think your just rather ignorant when it comes to Jeffries.

Ali - Floored by sub 200-pound men. Might have been KO;d by Cooper if not for the extra time and illegal smelling salts. Likely got gift win or two by the judges. Held Frazier all day to beat him in the rematch. Lost to L Spinks!

Dempsey - Ko's in one round by Fireman Flynn, lost to Meehan, did not beat top competition, ducked his 2-3 bed in Wills and Greb. Badly outclassed by Tunney and Jack wasn't that old when the match happened.

Louis - Ko'd by sub 200-pound men. Weaker completion in comparison to other all time greats. Only 2 of his 26 title defenses were vs black opponents.

Liston - Outside of a sacred Patterson, who did he really beat? Lost to Marshall, quit vs Ali.

Wlad Klitschko, Very skilled and big but had a shaky chin, probably did not beat any hall of fame fighters.

Jack Johnson. KO'd by sub 200-pound men. Quit in fights multiple times ( Shut up Mcvey, yes he did ), DQ'd for fouls, had a very easy title run avoiding the 3-4 best out there in Langford, McVey, and Jeannette. Lots of losses and draws to lesser men, not a puncher, not overly impressive on film either.

Frazier - 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman. Lots of other fighters not on your list could probably do the same or better. Caught Ali coming back when his legs were not the same. Did not have a lot of fights, and avoided many punchers.

Tunney - Very few fights at heavyweight.

Foreman - Got beat by Jimmy Young. Almost KO'd by Lyle. Not a good boxer, or very fast. Had a nice comeback, but is over rated.

Holyfield - 1-4 vs Bowe and Lewis on fair score cards. Lost to Moorer, Ko;d by a blown up middle weight, inconstant, and allegations of PED's dog his career.

Lewis - though big and skilled, he was Ko'd quickly without taking much punishment from one punch. Picked the best time for him to fight his best opponents, beating Holy and Tyson when they were older and Vitali Klitschko when he was training for a 10 round fight with a nobody, and took the match in two weeks. Did not give re-matches to Mercer, Bruno, or Vitali Klitschko.

Bowe - Outside of Holyfield, his resume is a bit thin. Badly battered by Andrew Golota who if he did not go low would be 2-0 vs Bowe.

Marciano - Reports suggest he lost the first fight to LaStarza. Fought older and smaller men, and was himself very small. Undefeated because he retired at age 32.

Tyson - Lost this legacy fights to Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis. Lacks a legacy win, unless you think Spinks qualifies.

Holmes - A fine record in his prime, but his competition isn't highly regarded.

Norton - You really think he would be on top or near the top in every era? Um NO. He would not in the 1990's. Norton was a fine boxer puncher, but had a glass jaw, and was starched early by punchers.

If I wanted to I could start a thread on any of these fighters, which brings me back to Jeffries, who you know little about and have been exposed for exactly that here.

Jeffries was moved quickly, and never lost outside of his comeback fight out of the ring 6 years, rusty, and over weight. His career needs NO excuses. Those who saw him or lived/wrote from 1890-1960 University said he was an all time great, ahead of many fighters you have on your own list!

So in closing how could Jeffries be ahead of Johnson, Marciano, Tunney, and Louis on many lists and NOT be considered an all time great??? Dago, you tell me! If you question the last sentence, I can produce several lists from historians and writers for you to read!
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They all would have been at the top of each era. That's the point.

Mr.DagoWop · Jul 10, 2017

Mendoza said: ↑

" In the Ring With James J. Jeffries is Adam Pollack's 4th book in his heavyweight champion series. It describes in meticulous detail Jeffries' bouts from the 1890s up to 1905 (including round by round accounts as well as pre- and post-fight analysis), his opponents, and his training regimen. It discusses the time's heavyweight scene, including contenders, pre-fight hype and negotiations, political and legal obstacles, and the color line. Chapters also include descriptions and analysis of Corbett-Sharkey II, Fitzsimmons-Ruhlin, Fitz-Sharkey II, and Corbett-McCoy, as well as controversies surrounding several bouts. The book is based on next day local newspaper accounts, comparing and contrasting their descriptions and analysis in order to provide an authentic view of how heavyweight boxing was perceived at the time. The use of local primary sources gives readers a rare opportunity to relive Jeffries' career as if they were reading about it at the time he was fighting. The book also includes Jeffries' career record, over 100 photos, 924 footnotes, and an index."

^^^ There you have it. Pollack has multiple sources, 924 footnotes, and an index.

Why is this not good enough? You'll never read it. I'm showing you there are tons of sources, just like you are asking for. The sources are not made up.
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Just show me one single newspaper from Adam Pollack's book that supports what you're claiming. Only one single tiny newspaper.

Its been like 50 pages and you guys have yet to fulfill that request yet I have answered all of your guys' arguments. That's very unfair.

Don't bother replying without the newspaper, there isn't much else to discuss without it.

mcvey · Jul 10, 2017

Mendoza said: ↑

The ring was 25 x 25. If scored on the 10 point must ( Jeffries ad a knockdown ), its a close fight based on papers giving detailed round by round reports, and either calling a winner or giving the reader enough info to pick the winner for the round.

The odd thing is many fights had the winner behind at some point, but for whatever reason this fight, which is not on film gets a lot of talk about it.

When needed, Jeffries switched tactics. Had the fight been 15 rounds, he switches tactics much sooner. Boxing with Corbett as his corner had his doing was not the thing to do early. Tommy Ryan, whom Jeffries had a falling out wanted this. Ryan was in Corbett's corner in the re-match and Jeffries not only punished Corbett in the re-match, he out boxed him!. By that time, Jeffries had picked up more skill. You wonder a bit if Ryan was rooting for his Irish kin in the first fight as he was a sharp guy, picking the wrong tactics.
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It wasn't scored on the 10 point must system so that is irrelevant! Corbett was still in control strong, and fresh after 15rds had the fight been over 20 rds Jeffries would have found it just as hard to reach him as he actually did .
Corbett was totally gone for the rematch, no conclusions about improvement could or should be made from that fight!
In his previous fight Jeffries was described as looking like a novice against Fitzsimmons ,with Fitz hitting him when and where he wanted!

mcvey · Jul 10, 2017

Mr.DagoWop said: ↑

Just show me one single newspaper from Adam Pollack's book that supports what you're claiming. Only one single tiny newspaper.

Its been like 50 pages and you guys have yet to fulfill that request yet I have answered all of your guys' arguments. That's very unfair.

Don't bother replying without the newspaper, there isn't much else to discuss without it.
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If you get a primary source from Mendoza supporting his opinion you will be the first poster on this forum to do so!

mcvey · Jul 10, 2017

Mendoza said: ↑

The ring was 25 x 25. If scored on the 10 point must ( Jeffries ad a knockdown ), its a close fight based on papers giving detailed round by round reports, and either calling a winner or giving the reader enough info to pick the winner for the round.

The odd thing is many fights had the winner behind at some point, but for whatever reason this fight, which is not on film gets a lot of talk about it.

When needed, Jeffries switched tactics. Had the fight been 15 rounds, he switches tactics much sooner. Boxing with Corbett as his corner had his doing was not the thing to do early. Tommy Ryan, whom Jeffries had a falling out wanted this. Ryan was in Corbett's corner in the re-match and Jeffries not only punished Corbett in the re-match, he out boxed him!. By that time, Jeffries had picked up more skill. You wonder a bit if Ryan was rooting for his Irish kin in the first fight as he was a sharp guy, picking the wrong tactics.
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Ryan is credited with introducing Jeffries to the famous crouch he used , he didn't!
Now when can we expect to see proof from you that ,"Goddard was hospitalized after the Jeffries fight",and that," Everett was bedridden for several weeks"????

Mr.DagoWop · Jul 10, 2017

edward morbius said: ↑

You and DW score on quantity rather than quality of punches.
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I score on quality more than quantity. However, landing 3x as many punches as your opponent as well has throwing more and having over double their accuracy percentage is something that cannot be overlooked. Especially when we don't have film of the fight and the newspapermen are saying Jeffries looked like a novice.

Not every punch Jeffries threw was quality and not every punch that Corbett threw was a pitty pat.

Mendoza · Jul 10, 2017

Hey Dago,

I have a serious question for you! You mentioned the following men are all time greats

" These are the guys I think would be at the top or near the top of every era at heavyweight.

Muhammad Ali
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Wlad Klitschko
Jack Johnson
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
George Foreman
Evander Holyfield
Lennox Lewis
Riddick Bowe
Rocky Marciano
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Ken Norton

-Dago "

NOW, What if several manager, fighters, and historians, from multiple decades say Jeffries was an ATG, and infact ranks higher than many of the men you listed???

Undersuch circumstances, how in the world can't Jeffries be an all time great which is the title of your thread?

I'd really like you to give me a reason if you can.

Go ahead and read 'em. I can provide 20 more, and you'll see Jeffries ranking higher than all mentioned names on some lists, and higher than many you think are ATG's.

Jim Corbett (circa 1925)
Heavyweight Champion of the World (1892-1897)
Quoted in: Gentlemen Jim Corbett: The Truth Behind a Boxing Legend, Patrick Myler (p. 190).

1-Peter Jackson, Jim Jeffries
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-John L. Sullivan
5-Frank Slavin, Jack Dempsey
7-Sam Langford
8-Jack Johnson
9-Jess Willard
10-Tom Sharkey, Harry Wills
12-Charlie Mitchell, Kid McCoy
14-Jake Kilrain

Tommy Burns (circa 1928)
Heavyweight Champion of the World (1906-1908)
Quoted in: The Legendary Champions (1968) [video documentary], written & directed by Harry Chapin
1-Jim Jeffries
2-Jack Johnson
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Dempsey
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Philadelphia Jack O’Brien
8-Jess Willard

Dumb Dan Morgan (circa 1950)
Fight manager, trainer
Quoted in: The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John D. McCallum (pp. 46-47)
1-Jim Jeffries
2-John L. Sullivan
3-Jack Johnson
4-Bob Fitzsimmons
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Jack Dempsey
8-Joe Louis

Jim Jennings (1956)
Sportswriter, NY Daily Mirror
[revealed in private correspondence with IBRO historian Tracy G. Callis]

1-Jack Johnson
2-Jim Jeffries
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Dempsey
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Joe Louis
8-Rocky Marciano

Nat Fleischer (1958)
Publisher, sportswriter, author
Quoted in: The 1986-1987 Ring Record Book and Boxing Encyclopedia, edited by Herbert G. Goldman (p. 1070)
1-Jack Johnson
2-Jim Jeffries
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Dempsey
5-Jim Corbett
6-Joe Louis
7-Sam Langford
8-Gene Tunney
9-Max Schmeling
10-Rocky Marciano

Experts Poll (1962)
The Ring (December 1962, pp. 6-12)

1-Jack Dempsey (13)
2-Joe Louis (10)
3-Jack Johnson (9)
4-Gene Tunney (3)
5-Jim Jeffries, Sam Langford (2 each)
7-Rocky Marciano (1)
Vote named greatest heavyweight, only.

George A. Barton (1962)
Sportswriter, The Minneapolis Tribune
Quoted in: The Ring (December 1962, p. 10)
1-Jack Johnson
2-Jim Jeffries
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Dempsey
5-Joe Louis
6-Jim Corbett
7-Gene Tunney
8-John L. Sullivan
9-Rocky Marciano
10-Max Baer

Harry Grayson (circa mid-1960s?)
NEA Sports Editor-Columnist in Detroit

1-Jack Dempsey
2-Jack Johnson
3-Jim Jeffries
4-John L. Sullivan
5-Gene Tunney
6-Bob Fitzsimmons
7-Jim Corbett
8-Joe Louis

Charlie Rose (1968)
Boxer, trainer, manager
Quoted in: The 1986-1987 Ring Record Book and Boxing Encyclopedia, edited by Herbert G. Goldman (p. 1070)
1-Sam Langford
2-Jack Johnson
3-Jack Dempsey
4-Joe Louis
5-Jim Jeffries
6-Gene Tunney
7-Sam McVey
8-Rocky Marciano
9-Jim Corbett
10-Max Baer
Note: Rose ranked Bob Fitzsimmons the #1 light-heavyweight of all-time and did not, therefore, consider him for his heavyweight rankings.

David Willoughby (1970)
Author of The Super Athletes

1-Jim Jeffries
2-Jack Dempsey
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Johnson
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Joe Louis
8-Rocky Marciano

The Ring Editors (Nat Loubet, Editor-n-Chief) (1975)
The Ring (March 1975, pp. 28-30)
1-Joe Louis
2-Jack Dempsey
3-Jim Jeffries
4-Jack Johnson
5-Rocky Marciano
6-Gene Tunney
7-Bob Fitzsimmons
8-Jim Corbett
9-Muhammad Ali
10-Joe Frazier

"Survey of Old-Timers" (1975)
The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John D. McCallum (pp. 322-323)
1-Jim Jeffries
2-Jack Johnson
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jim Corbett
5-Jack Dempsey
6-John L. Sullivan
7-Gene Tunney
8-Joe Louis
9-Rocky Marciano
10-Muhammad Ali

John D. McCallum (1977)
Author of The Heavyweight Championship (1974), The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions (1975)
[revealed in private correspondence with IBRO historian Tracy G. Callis]

1-Jack Dempsey
2-Joe Louis
3-Jim Jeffries
4-Jack Johnson
5-Bob Fitzsimmons
6-Jim Corbett
7-John L. Sullivan
8-Gene Tunney
9-Rocky Marciano
10-Muhammad Ali

Steve Farhood (1999)
Columnist, one-time editor-n-chief of The Ring
[url]www.hbo.com/boxing/columnsfeatures/farhood/[/url]
1-Muhammad Ali
2-Joe Louis
3-Jack Johnson
4-Larry Holmes
5-Rocky Marciano
6-Jack Dempsey
7-Jim Jeffries
8-Evander Holyfield
9-Mike Tyson
10-George Foreman

David Lewis (2001)
Historian,

1-Muhammad Ali
2-Jim Jeffries
3-Jack Johnson
4-George Foreman
5-Jack Dempsey
6-Joe Louis
7-Larry Holmes
8-Gene Tunney
9-Lennox Lewis
10-Sonny Liston
11-Rocky Marciano
12-Riddick Bowe
13-Evander Holyfield
14-Joe Frazier
15-Sam Langford

Mendoza · Jul 10, 2017

mcvey said: ↑

The knockdowns were wrongly attributed to Corbett as is pointed out in the report.One of the knockdowns scored by Jeffries may not have been bona- fide according to different reports. Corbett was up immediately after being down ,the second kd was the result of a punch on his shoulder.

Fitzsimmons was of the opinion that Corbett should have won but paid the price of being overconfident. Kid McCoy agreed,Charley White, the referee stated that Jeffries had an up hill battle until the ko. As to fouls, Jeffries was booed in at least three rounds for deliberately targetting the kidneys and cautioned once by White for laying on Corbett ,using his superior weight to tire him out.Jeffreis made a statement that his friends told him after the fight that he was behind, but that he felt that it would have been unjust had he lost the title by decision, because he was making the fight .His manager William Brady said then, and years later in his autobiography that Jeffries was in real danger of losing the decision because he was tying to out- box Corbett and being outclassed,Brady took over the corner after the 18th round and sent Jeffries out for the ko. Please show reports that describe Greb as amateurish,I am sure we would all like to read them!
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1 ) the report with the blows landed is junk. Any report that scores two Kd's for the wrong fighter should be DQ!

2 ) Brady was very fond of Corbett, even he said so, The two shared a love of theater among other things so take what he say with a grain of salt.

3 ) If you read, many reporters called Greb amateurish.

4 ) Corbett is the only man in the universe that claims he put Jeffries down in sparring. Its not proof, not even by your standards!

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