The ring was 25 x 25. If scored on the 10 point must ( Jeffries ad a knockdown ), its a close fight based on papers giving detailed round by round reports, and either calling a winner or giving the reader enough info to pick the winner for the round. The odd thing is many fights had the winner behind at some point, but for whatever reason this fight, which is not on film gets a lot of talk about it. When needed, Jeffries switched tactics. Had the fight been 15 rounds, he switches tactics much sooner. Boxing with Corbett as his corner had his doing was not the thing to do early. Tommy Ryan, whom Jeffries had a falling out wanted this. Ryan was in Corbett's corner in the re-match and Jeffries not only punished Corbett in the re-match, he out boxed him!. By that time, Jeffries had picked up more skill. You wonder a bit if Ryan was rooting for his Irish kin in the first fight as he was a sharp guy, picking the wrong tactics.
Fair enough. You and DW score on quantity rather than quality of punches. But not everybody does, so where do we go with rehashing a fight which Jeff won by a KO except to agree to disagree. As I pointed out, newspapers had round scores like 8-7-5 and 9-7. That is not all THAT one-sided, although I have not seen any newspaper account which actually had Jeff ahead or even after 22 rounds.
The knockdowns were wrongly attributed to Corbett as is pointed out in the report.One of the knockdowns scored by Jeffries may not have been bona- fide according to different reports. Corbett was up immediately after being down ,the second kd was the result of a punch on his shoulder. Fitzsimmons was of the opinion that Corbett should have won but paid the price of being overconfident. Kid McCoy agreed,Charley White, the referee stated that Jeffries had an up hill battle until the ko. As to fouls, Jeffries was booed in at least three rounds for deliberately targetting the kidneys and cautioned once by White for laying on Corbett ,using his superior weight to tire him out.Jeffreis made a statement that his friends told him after the fight that he was behind, but that he felt that it would have been unjust had he lost the title by decision, because he was making the fight .His manager William Brady said then, and years later in his autobiography that Jeffries was in real danger of losing the decision because he was tying to out- box Corbett and being outclassed,Brady took over the corner after the 18th round and sent Jeffries out for the ko. Please show reports that describe Greb as amateurish,I am sure we would all like to read them!
Jeff's corner were of the opinion that, after the 18th round he needed a ko to win,which fair play to him, he duly succeeded in getting.
I want to point out that there is a big difference between being "in danger of losing the fight" which is certainly true for Jeff in this fight, and being so far behind that you are certain of losing if it goes the distance. Jeff was behind after 22 rounds. If Corbett rallied and finished strong, Jeff would have lost. On the other hand, if Jeff swept the last three rounds, maybe not. That seems to be Adam Pollack's position, and it for certain is mine.
There are two different stories of Corbett dropping Jeffries in sparring one for a ko ,one for just a kd.If either were true it wouldn't change my opinion of either significantly Jeffries was a crude novice compared to Corbett at the time. The onus is on you to provide evidence that Everett was bed ridden for weeks as the result of the Jeffries fight, just as it is for you to provide proof that Goddard was hospitalized after the Jeffries fight I know neither is correct and I have the rounds by rounds of botht fight in which neither fighter took any sort of a beating.Provide proof to back up your statements and I wll provide proof to destroy your arguments which I am certain I can easily do. Here is just a start Everett was not down multiple times at tall and I can easily prove it! Now produce you evidence! It's called , A CHALLENGE TAKE IT UP, OR ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG!
Just show me one single newspaper from Adam Pollack's book that supports what you're claiming. Only one single tiny newspaper. Its been like 50 pages and you guys have yet to fulfill that request yet I have answered all of your guys' arguments. That's very unfair. Don't bother replying without the newspaper, there isn't much else to discuss without it.
It wasn't scored on the 10 point must system so that is irrelevant! Corbett was still in control strong, and fresh after 15rds had the fight been over 20 rds Jeffries would have found it just as hard to reach him as he actually did . Corbett was totally gone for the rematch, no conclusions about improvement could or should be made from that fight! In his previous fight Jeffries was described as looking like a novice against Fitzsimmons ,with Fitz hitting him when and where he wanted!
If you get a primary source from Mendoza supporting his opinion you will be the first poster on this forum to do so!
Ryan is credited with introducing Jeffries to the famous crouch he used , he didn't! Now when can we expect to see proof from you that ,"Goddard was hospitalized after the Jeffries fight",and that," Everett was bedridden for several weeks"????
I score on quality more than quantity. However, landing 3x as many punches as your opponent as well has throwing more and having over double their accuracy percentage is something that cannot be overlooked. Especially when we don't have film of the fight and the newspapermen are saying Jeffries looked like a novice. Not every punch Jeffries threw was quality and not every punch that Corbett threw was a pitty pat.
Hey Dago, I have a serious question for you! You mentioned the following men are all time greats " These are the guys I think would be at the top or near the top of every era at heavyweight. Muhammad Ali Jack Dempsey Joe Louis Sonny Liston Wlad Klitschko Jack Johnson Joe Frazier Gene Tunney George Foreman Evander Holyfield Lennox Lewis Riddick Bowe Rocky Marciano Mike Tyson Larry Holmes Ken Norton -Dago " NOW, What if several manager, fighters, and historians, from multiple decades say Jeffries was an ATG, and infact ranks higher than many of the men you listed??? Undersuch circumstances, how in the world can't Jeffries be an all time great which is the title of your thread? I'd really like you to give me a reason if you can. Go ahead and read 'em. I can provide 20 more, and you'll see Jeffries ranking higher than all mentioned names on some lists, and higher than many you think are ATG's. Jim Corbett (circa 1925) Heavyweight Champion of the World (1892-1897) Quoted in: Gentlemen Jim Corbett: The Truth Behind a Boxing Legend, Patrick Myler (p. 190). 1-Peter Jackson, Jim Jeffries 3-Bob Fitzsimmons 4-John L. Sullivan 5-Frank Slavin, Jack Dempsey 7-Sam Langford 8-Jack Johnson 9-Jess Willard 10-Tom Sharkey, Harry Wills 12-Charlie Mitchell, Kid McCoy 14-Jake Kilrain Tommy Burns (circa 1928) Heavyweight Champion of the World (1906-1908) Quoted in: The Legendary Champions (1968) [video documentary], written & directed by Harry Chapin 1-Jim Jeffries 2-Jack Johnson 3-Bob Fitzsimmons 4-Jack Dempsey 5-Jim Corbett 6-Gene Tunney 7-Philadelphia Jack O’Brien 8-Jess Willard Dumb Dan Morgan (circa 1950) Fight manager, trainer Quoted in: The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John D. McCallum (pp. 46-47) 1-Jim Jeffries 2-John L. Sullivan 3-Jack Johnson 4-Bob Fitzsimmons 5-Jim Corbett 6-Gene Tunney 7-Jack Dempsey 8-Joe Louis Jim Jennings (1956) Sportswriter, NY Daily Mirror [revealed in private correspondence with IBRO historian Tracy G. Callis] 1-Jack Johnson 2-Jim Jeffries 3-Bob Fitzsimmons 4-Jack Dempsey 5-Jim Corbett 6-Gene Tunney 7-Joe Louis 8-Rocky Marciano Nat Fleischer (1958) Publisher, sportswriter, author Quoted in: The 1986-1987 Ring Record Book and Boxing Encyclopedia, edited by Herbert G. Goldman (p. 1070) 1-Jack Johnson 2-Jim Jeffries 3-Bob Fitzsimmons 4-Jack Dempsey 5-Jim Corbett 6-Joe Louis 7-Sam Langford 8-Gene Tunney 9-Max Schmeling 10-Rocky Marciano Experts Poll (1962) The Ring (December 1962, pp. 6-12) 1-Jack Dempsey (13) 2-Joe Louis (10) 3-Jack Johnson (9) 4-Gene Tunney (3) 5-Jim Jeffries, Sam Langford (2 each) 7-Rocky Marciano (1) Vote named greatest heavyweight, only. George A. Barton (1962) Sportswriter, The Minneapolis Tribune Quoted in: The Ring (December 1962, p. 10) 1-Jack Johnson 2-Jim Jeffries 3-Bob Fitzsimmons 4-Jack Dempsey 5-Joe Louis 6-Jim Corbett 7-Gene Tunney 8-John L. Sullivan 9-Rocky Marciano 10-Max Baer Harry Grayson (circa mid-1960s?) NEA Sports Editor-Columnist in Detroit 1-Jack Dempsey 2-Jack Johnson 3-Jim Jeffries 4-John L. Sullivan 5-Gene Tunney 6-Bob Fitzsimmons 7-Jim Corbett 8-Joe Louis Charlie Rose (1968) Boxer, trainer, manager Quoted in: The 1986-1987 Ring Record Book and Boxing Encyclopedia, edited by Herbert G. Goldman (p. 1070) 1-Sam Langford 2-Jack Johnson 3-Jack Dempsey 4-Joe Louis 5-Jim Jeffries 6-Gene Tunney 7-Sam McVey 8-Rocky Marciano 9-Jim Corbett 10-Max Baer Note: Rose ranked Bob Fitzsimmons the #1 light-heavyweight of all-time and did not, therefore, consider him for his heavyweight rankings. David Willoughby (1970) Author of The Super Athletes 1-Jim Jeffries 2-Jack Dempsey 3-Bob Fitzsimmons 4-Jack Johnson 5-Jim Corbett 6-Gene Tunney 7-Joe Louis 8-Rocky Marciano The Ring Editors (Nat Loubet, Editor-n-Chief) (1975) The Ring (March 1975, pp. 28-30) 1-Joe Louis 2-Jack Dempsey 3-Jim Jeffries 4-Jack Johnson 5-Rocky Marciano 6-Gene Tunney 7-Bob Fitzsimmons 8-Jim Corbett 9-Muhammad Ali 10-Joe Frazier "Survey of Old-Timers" (1975) The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John D. McCallum (pp. 322-323) 1-Jim Jeffries 2-Jack Johnson 3-Bob Fitzsimmons 4-Jim Corbett 5-Jack Dempsey 6-John L. Sullivan 7-Gene Tunney 8-Joe Louis 9-Rocky Marciano 10-Muhammad Ali John D. McCallum (1977) Author of The Heavyweight Championship (1974), The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions (1975) [revealed in private correspondence with IBRO historian Tracy G. Callis] 1-Jack Dempsey 2-Joe Louis 3-Jim Jeffries 4-Jack Johnson 5-Bob Fitzsimmons 6-Jim Corbett 7-John L. Sullivan 8-Gene Tunney 9-Rocky Marciano 10-Muhammad Ali Steve Farhood (1999) Columnist, one-time editor-n-chief of The Ring [url]www.hbo.com/boxing/columnsfeatures/farhood/[/url] 1-Muhammad Ali 2-Joe Louis 3-Jack Johnson 4-Larry Holmes 5-Rocky Marciano 6-Jack Dempsey 7-Jim Jeffries 8-Evander Holyfield 9-Mike Tyson 10-George Foreman David Lewis (2001) Historian, 1-Muhammad Ali 2-Jim Jeffries 3-Jack Johnson 4-George Foreman 5-Jack Dempsey 6-Joe Louis 7-Larry Holmes 8-Gene Tunney 9-Lennox Lewis 10-Sonny Liston 11-Rocky Marciano 12-Riddick Bowe 13-Evander Holyfield 14-Joe Frazier 15-Sam Langford
1 ) the report with the blows landed is junk. Any report that scores two Kd's for the wrong fighter should be DQ! 2 ) Brady was very fond of Corbett, even he said so, The two shared a love of theater among other things so take what he say with a grain of salt. 3 ) If you read, many reporters called Greb amateurish. 4 ) Corbett is the only man in the universe that claims he put Jeffries down in sparring. Its not proof, not even by your standards!
