Now who wins prime Calzaghe or prime Ward?

If Calzaghe wouldn't fight Dawson or Froch he wouldn't fight Ward.

His response to a Hopkins rematch ? - Absolutely no way.

And thats after Hopkins offered to go to Wales . Its fair to say Joe would never have even fought Ward , let alone actually beat him.

 

Outside of the Toney victories I don't see what Griffin has done or did that's deemed as so special, throw into the mix that Toney was horrible at 175 even losing to Thadzi.

Joe could have gone to 175 but would he have gotten any fights? Seriously outside of possibly Hill would any of the fighters come to the UK? I personally couldn't imagine Griffin, Jones, DM, Tarver etc going to Wales.

 

you'd not however need to imagine American SMWs Mitchell, Lacy, Manfredo coming to Wales. funny, that. selective imagination, yeh? Just the ONES THAT INTERFERE WITH YOUR ARGUMENT that you cant imagine happening.

 

Once again, this is a simplistic and unsupported argument. You're merely repeating yourself and adding nothing of any objective value to the discussion.

You might not like stats, but that is a more objective measurement than subjective statements (which could use stats, actually, to help substantiate them) like "he's a very hittable fighter." I alluded to Froch being able to be hit without much difficulty, and that jibed with the stats for the Ward-Froch bout.

Now, I've clearly made the case as regards Ward and Calzaghe's punch output, regardless of your non-scientific (refusal to accept punch stats) approach to the issue.

Here I'll reference more statistics to help bolster the case.

In Kovalev/Ward 1, here were the final punch stats:

Kovalev --------> 126/474
Ward -----------> 116/337

As we know, Kovalev was behind on the cards -1, -1, -1. And Kovalev got the KD in Round 2.

Thus, we see that a -10 disparity in punches landed handed Ward a +1 status on the cards. Which brings up the questionable judging, of course (Kovalev won the fight), but still you see that with a fairly-even "punches thrown" and "punches landed" ratio Ward still is barely eking-out the cards here. Although Kovalev does get the extra +1 here because of the knockdown.

Now, imagine Ward is nearly doubled-up in thrown punches and outlanded by, say, 60-100 punches. How do you think the scoring would look then?

The case has been made here. I can argue from subjective eye test or I can argue from objective statistics. It doesn't make any difference. The conclusion is the same either way. You are limited by a subjective argument, which does not help your case any.

As I pointed out above, Hopkins was likely the most difficult fight of Calzaghe's career (at least when Calzaghe was not injured in a fight, like the Reid bout). He easily won the fight, and would have won even more easily had Hopkins not scored the knockdown in Round 1.

The only way in which a Calzaghe-Ward fight would be competitive would be if biased judging helped Ward (not counting something like a fluke cut from a headbutt or something). Otherwise, Calzaghe's output would overwhelm Ward and rack up rounds to what is likely a minimum 8-4 rounds Joe win.

There is no point in arguing with any of you Ward fans any longer. You have no case and it's like an NBA player being challenged by a 5' 10" teenager in a game of 21. There's no 'juice' for me in doing so because the win is too easy.

The fight is not competitive. It never could be for Ward. Not good enough, doesn't hit hard enough, doesn't have a high enough workrate.

Basic stuff for any serious observer of the sport.

 

You failed the test on the last go-round (as addressed by my homework post). There is no reason for me to continue to discuss this subject with you. You don't know enough, and you're not actually seeking out ways to improve your knowledge on the subject (via research). Instead, you seem content to mouth what appear to be provable falsehoods as shown by the information I dug up.

I'm a fair guy, but I can only take so much wasted time. Talking with people who only have subjective, unsupported opinions to offer on a topic doesn't interest me, particularly when they're clearly wrong and have no serious retort to offer.

 

One other simple thing for the un-objective (refusal to consider stats) arguers on here:

CompuBox has done a good job, as cited by me earlier in the thread, of documenting the massive workrate of fighters like Paul Williams, Margarito and Vitali (among others).

Do you think CompuBox is wrong in demonstrating those fighters had high workrate? Are you seriously questioning the 'judgement' of the CompuBox stats as regards those fighters' workrates?

Calzaghe is a high-workrate fighter. That's known, even if you think Compubox mis-scored a couple of "landed/non-landed" blows here or there.

Anyways, this is academic. My case has been made and there have been zero serious challenges to my conclusion. All we've gotten is subjective, repetitive opinions by those who seem to be Ward fans. Meanwhile, I have added new statistical support for my case in several posts.

If this were a debate contest, the moderator would have invoked the Mercy Rule some time ago.

 

Yeah I know. That "easily" aspect must be seen in the light of me trolling the usual suspects a little

 

LMFAO, that is some shocking grammar.

Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't but both Mitchell and Lacy had fought abroad before. As for Manfredo he was getting an undeserved title shot he'd of gone to the moon for it.

I wouldn't care if Jones jr had fought a murderer's row of opposition but taking out Hill and Griffin who are half decent you are left with Frazier, Kelly, Telesco, Harmon, Hall, Woods, Harding etc and you are telling me that these guys are head and shoulders above the guys Calzaghe fought?

 

Let's do some more data just to try to enlighten things a bit more.

As far as I can tell, Calzaghe has been in 4 bouts of 12 rounds that went the distance that were measured by CompuBox. Here's how they look.

vs Lacy ----------> 116 punches landed on Calzaghe...................outlands by 235 punches (33 = Calzaghe age)
vs Kessler -------> 173 punches landed on Calzaghe...................outlands by 112 punches (35 = Calzaghe age)
vs Hopkins ------> 127 punches landed on Calzaghe...................outlands by 105 punches (36 = Calzaghe age)
vs Jones ---------> 159 punches landed on Calzaghe...................outlands by 185 punches (36 = Calzaghe age)

So, we see that in every fight Past-Prime Calzaghe had that CompuBox recorded, Calzaghe was hit fewer than 200 times and out-landed his opponent by 100+ punches.

If you out-land your opponent by 100+ punches, there is almost no way you are going to lose the bout save for:

- corrupt judging (Byrd in the Calzaghe/Hopkins fight; Ward/Kovalev 1)
- you are knocked down multiple times in the fight
- you rack up a huge edge in punches landed in like 1-2 rounds (Ward in Round 8 of the 2nd Kov fight)

Now let's look at this for Ward. I think this was all I could find that matched the "went 12 rounds and CompuBox measured the fight" criteria. Kessler fight (11 rounds) included for point of comparison. Of note, Kessler was 28 when he fought Calzaghe and 30 when he fought Ward.

vs Kessler ------> 125 punches landed on Ward......................outlands by 100 punches (25 = Ward age)
vs Bika ---------> 201 punches landed on Ward......................outlands by 034 punches (26 = Ward age)
vs Froch --------> 156 punches landed on Ward......................outlands by 087 punches (27 = Ward age)
vs Kov 1 --------> 126 punches landed on Ward......................outlands by-010 punches (32 = Ward age)


Thus, you see that:

- Past-Prime Calzaghe never was below +105 in punches landed against his opponents (including BHop)
- Prime Ward was hit more in the Bika fight than Past-Prime Calzaghe was hit in any of these Calz fights
- 32 year old Ward was out-landed by Kovalev

Conclusions:

- Calzaghe is not as easy to hit as some might think (although I admit his style is more "hit me if you can, I'll hit you even more" than trying to avoid being hit)
- Prime Calzaghe likely out-lands Ward and out-lands him by a significant margin.

If we compare Kessler/Calzaghe and Kessler/Ward (11 rounds), we get this:

Calz --------> 285/1010
Kess --------> 173/585

Ward --------> 225/667
Kess ---------> 125/431

Past-Prime Calzaghe landing 60 more punches against Kessler than did Prime Ward. Although, to be fair, Ward missed out on 1.5 rounds in that fight (fight stopped like midway though the 11th round). So maybe the gap becomes more like +45 or so for Calzaghe.

This data reinforces my previous conclusions.

- Calzaghe will out-throw Ward
- Calzaghe will out-land Ward
- Even if you think Calzaghe is 'hittable,' he's still going to significantly out-land Ward and thus Calzaghe's being hit will become irrelevant in the outcome of the bout

 

Unfortunately, you don't get to dictate whether someone replies or not, particularly when you say something as incomprehensible as 'failey'... what do you mean?

 

Jones lost to a non-elite fighter when in his prime. my your own logic, he can't be an elite fighter.

 

Statistics on punches thrown and landed are simply collections of subjective interpretations. Compubox has been discredited numerous times by various online journalists who showed vast discrepancies between their own.

Punch stats are also a relatively recent phenomenon; they're not at all essential for discussing and evaluating fighters in the sport of boxing.

I'm repeating myself because you've offered nothing concrete to rebut my claims, only notoriously inaccurate measures you claim are "objective."

The proof is in their performances.

In his best win-an aging but still game Bernard Hopkins-Calzaghe was dropped early and showed a large deficiency on the inside. The fight was awful and hard to score, but Calzaghe showed that if a fighter doesn't make themselves readily available with movement, rolling, and a tight guard, he isn't great at creatively opening up a defense. He was also pretty deficient on the inside.

In Ward's best win, he was boxing evenly with a murderous long-range puncher with a reach and height advantage in Kovalev. He was able to match him on the outside as well as dominate him on the inside. He showed more completeness in his best win. (I should acknowledge Ward got dropped against Kovalev in the first fight as well, but his performance in the rest of the fight showed more skill and versatility than Calzaghe ever has).

The same can be said about their performances against Kessler and Froch. Both are roughly on the same level of fighter. When Calzaghe beat Kessler, it was a war in which Calzaghe reached with a lot of shots and left himself open to throw slapping punches in bunches. He walked into some stupid shots. "It was the toughest fight of my life", Joe said.

When Ward beat Froch, it was a schooling. He was able to neutralize Froch and land precise punches in the moments Froch was off balance and over-committed, while Ward himself took few hard punches round to round. Again, it didn't matter whether he was on the outside or inside, Ward was in control and using accurate power punches.

Generally speaking Calzaghe makes mistakes that Ward doesn't, and Ward uses creative tools that Calzaghe doesn't. Calzaghe leaves himself open when chasing a fighter along the ropes pawing in the air. Ward uses creative feints down and up to misdirect an opponent. Calzaghe drops his hands, Ward keeps his right hand glued to his face and ducks to his side safely after every exchange. Calzaghe overextends throwing his straight punches. Ward uses his lead hand to control fighters, either moving their head or keeping one of their gloves in place. Calzaghe fights pretty much the same way every fight, Ward uses more different punches and tactics depending on the opponent.

 

Calzaghe is not an ATG, just to throw it out there.
He is in terms of H2H ability but I don't consider him an ATG at all.

 

This moron actually believes those stats help his argument. Lets break it down.

Ward landed at a higher connect % on Kessler by throwing lesser punches in lesser rounds.

That means Ward was more accurate throwing textbook punches with proper technique. Calz connect rate is abysmal. He missed 700 punches against Kessler who was a stiff upright boxer.

But , Kessler landed at a much higher % on power punches by throwing far less punches.

Calz --------> 32% 148/460
Kess --------> 47% 121/259



Kessler/Ward power punch connect rate.

Ward ------------> 40% 132/330

Kessler-----------> 31% 47/151


So you can see Ward landed almost as many PP on Kessler by throwing over a 100 less shots in a fight that didn't go the distance.

Kessler found Calzaghe far easier to hit than Ward. And Calzaghe's PP hit % was lower than Wards despite throwing far more power punches.
This shows the wide skill discrepancy on display. Calzaghe edged a very competitive fight against Kessler with volume. Ward beat Kessler to bits one sided with pure skills and ring craft.
Skills win the day. Calz missed 700 punches on Kessler who doesn't bend at the waist and who doesn't move around the ring.
Ward uses every inch of the ring and had deference and evasive manoeuvres that would make Calzaghe look utterly lost without the map and compass.

Its not there for Joey boy , it would never be there for him. The Hopkins , Reid and Kessler fights prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Now go off and have your usual rant about how you don't respond to people who destroy your arguments.

 

^ There's nothing here (Bogotazo).

You guys have to do better. This is as interesting to me as "Boxer vs Punching Bag."

No serious analysis, no objective material, nothing. Not a challenge, not a realistic debate unless you think that Globetrotters vs Generals games are competitive games.

In almost every single long post of the last few I've made I added another data point to back-up my argument.

Here's another one, to get a sense of Calzaghe's workrate.

Margarito measured over 7 fights (I think in his prime) ---------------> 90 punches/round
Paul Williams measured over 14 fights ----------------------------------> 90 punches/round
35-year-old Calzaghe vs Kessler -----------------------------------------> 85 punches/round

And, of course, not only was Calzaghe past his prime when he fought unbeaten Kessler, he also had to worry about Kessler's big punch.

Just to get an idea of how much workrate can slow over time, let's take a look at two of Ward's fights.

vs Kessler (25 years old) ---------------> 60 punches thrown/round
vs Kov 1 (32 years old) -----------------> 28 punches thrown/round

That's a gigantic reduction in output for Ward.

Take that information and translate it to 35-year-old Calzaghe throwing 85 punches per round and imagine what he could throw during his prime.

Again, same conclusions, same data, same everything. And it all points the same way.

Once more, for those not up to speed ---> Even if you think CompuBox is mistaken on the "punches landed" stat, it should be easier to track "punches thrown." And, as mentioned above, CompuBox has done a very good job telling us who are high-workrate fighters.

Calzaghe is, Ward is not. And that is one of the primary reasons why Calzaghe coasts over Ward had they ever fought.