Now who wins prime Calzaghe or prime Ward?

He was a champion, thee champion at 168.

Why the hell should he give up concessions to a guy who's known best for being blown out in 1 round off RJJ?

Calzaghe v Manfredo drew in 35,000, RJJ wasn't even doing those numbers in the US.

I still cannot get my head around you thinking he should make concessions for Montell Griffin.....RJJ yes I can see it but not Griffin and to play devils advocate, if he did move up, beat Griffin which I think he does comfortably in front of 3 or 4,000 people....what then? What if Jones is content to fight the Richard Fraziers and Richard Halls of the world? What does he do then?

 

Great point! How many undefeated fighters did Wlad beat again? The most by any HW champion in history? He must be some good, then!

Now, back to the usual program.

 

So he's more gifted, yet his claim to fame is losing ever time he stepped up?

And it's not a different argument altogether at all, you can't start claiming Joe didn't fight such a guy then claim Ward's division was better because it had so and so in it yet Ward didn't fight them.

 

I don't believe Joe C was recognized as THE World SprMW World champ. He was just a titleholder, owning the WBO only for the most part. If anything, Sven, who had two belts, had more a stake on that claim, until his own retirement. Lacy picked up one of Ottke's old belts, which Joe eventually won.

 

Well you are correct to an extent as if we go off the ring ratings Ottke was the "number 1" from 99 to 01, Calzaghe was number 1 from then on.

I'd think though that any boxing fan would gladly admit that JC was the best in the division, even if you go by their results comparison of common opponents.

 

I think those scores are way off base so I can't really comment on that. I didn't see Ward outboxed in either fight, especially not the second. And either way he got the stoppage the second time after hurting Kovalev even if it was badly called/timed. Hurting and walking down Kovalev like he did is seriously impressive, much more so than anything Joe has done.

 

I'm not disputing the ending of the rematch, I thought it was poorly timed but in the same respect Ward was taking over and SK had blown his wad.

As for Kovalev, I'm a fan, I wanted him to beat Ward as I would if hypothetically he had fought Calzaghe, but I believe JC would have beaten SK, he wouldn't have stopped him but I think he's to multi dimensional, but again that's me being hypothetical.

Ward's good, he's very good I just don't think he matches up well against Calzaghe.

 

Calzaghe didn't pick up a second title at 168 until 2006.

 

Come on man, the fighter makes the title not the other way round.

 

Ok. he finally won a second title off Jeff Lacy, who won a vacant title when Ottke retired. I'm not sure what context your post is about.

Whether or not Joe C was seen as the best @ 168 is moot, since he did not face another top SprMW essentially until facing Kessler. I suppose Lacy was seen as a force to be reckoned with, but his flaws were pretty apparent.

But to hold one title for 8 years before finally unifying with another is quite telling. Partly because of the unification rules the WBO had, partly because the other parties didn't seem to want Joe c either. But Joe C did himself no favors at the same time. He was keen on sitting on the lowest 'esteemed' belt for nearly a decade. With an organization known for some of the worst rankings there are.

 

How is it a moot point?

What top fighter did Ottke face to establish his number 1 ranking?

Plus as I already stated just because a fighter is the IBF or WBC champion does not automatically propell them to number 1 status.

 

Unified titlists will almost always trump single title holders in the absence of a Ring champ.

 

Punch out, workrate, he who throws more wins, blah.

How aboutthis: Calzaghe lands 5 slaps to Ward's arms and shoulders, Ward lands 2 jabs an 1 clean left hook in return. Who'd be the one getting the better of the action? That'd be Ward in the eyes of any reasonable observer.

And the jab from Kovalev in the first round was a more telling blow than anything Joe threw in his short LHW career. They fight nothing alike, their punches wouldn't have the same effect on judges cards. To try to make a case for Calzaghe beating Ward based on his fight against Kovalev(which Ward won) is plain silly. It's even more silly to build that case exclusively on punch stats.

 

BTW, where did you get that Ottke was champ from 99-01 and Joe c from there on? Joe c didn't even get the ring belt until he defeated Lacy for his second title in 06, the one he got when Ottke retired.

 

The ring rankings, go have a look.