Do you guys really believe Ali is goat

Saying that...theirs one hes dodging 21 punches in 10 seconds. But theres a more impressive one out there where hes dodges less punches out there i m sure. Cant for the life of me remember who the opponent was.

 

Inside the ring before his 3-year hiatus in 1967 he was much more than just a very good slick Heavyweight. He had speed and reflexes that no one else in the Heavyweight division had ever seen. The ease at which he was able to outbox and befuddle Heavyweights with constant lateral movement using the jab was outstanding.

When he came back in the 70s he lost a lot of that speed and elusiveness he had before, he bacame more hittable, still retained much of his slickness, but as Cassius Clay and his fights in the two years after fighting Liston he was arguably GOAT in terms of an in-ring performance. The 1960s was really prime Ali, and the fact that he still was able to achieve so much success in the 70s as he did, with him being older and having lost a step after so much time away from the ring is impressive. When you consider how dominant and impressive he was as an in-ring performer in the 1960s, particularly in the first Liston fight, and the fact that he was a GOAT trash talker, and the aura of who he was he's a GOAT if not the GOAT any way you look at it.

 

Ali was so great, even with 3 years of his prime taken away, he still was able to do amazing things no one seen before. So I dont argue if it's self proclaimed or folks acknowledge the fact he was the GOAT of heavyweights. Personally, I like Joe Louis to be the GOAT of heavyweights.

 

Someone made a Roy Jones comprasion earlier in the thread which was accurate, what they brought to the ring in their respected primes resembled. But how they differed was when their immense athletic talent left them. After Roy's athletic abilities started to leave him, he turned into a punching bag. Whereas after Ali's athletic abilities abandoned him, he scored the greatest win in the HW history. Which shows you the difference between an elite Fighter and an ATG, also shows there's so much more to boxing than just physical abilities.

 

He would be too quick and had too much movement for Louis, out thought Foreman, would be too quick and smart for any recent heavy. Tyson would give him problems stylistically. But yeah, beat HW ever.

 

I disagree with what you're saying about Roy Jones, that he turned into a punching bag. But he did become unhealthy when he moved down from Heavyweight back to Light Heavy, and he lost a lot of his speed, making RJJ more hittable which Tarver and Johnson took advantage of. It's an unfair comparison though because Ali never had to move up in weight then cut that much weight like RJJ did. Ali was naturally a much bigger guy than RJJ but in terms of Skill both are comparable in terms of how fast their were in their respective divisions (Ali in the 1960s and RJJ before moving up to HW).

RJJ moving down from HW was similar to Ali coming back in the 1970s after 3 years off. Both lost a step after that happened, and were hit hard, RJJ got KO'd by Tarver and Ali got knocked down by Frazier.

RJJ and Ali are both ATGs, there are many things to consider when comparing the two, Ali retired while still in his 30s while RJJ has fought well into his 40s. Most of Ali's success in the 1970s occurred before the age where RJJ started to decline. (mid-30s) Basically the age at which RJJ started to decline, Ali was already declining himself at that age.

The similiarities are that prime for prime, both RJJ and Ali / Cassius Clay had such a speed and athleticism advantage on their opponents. The difference is that RJJ actually maintained that speed and athleticism advantage well into his 30s while Ali's advantage was only in his 20s. By the time he was 30, Ali had already lost and slowed way down while RJJ was still (essentially) undefeated and untouchable.

So there's a lot consider when comparing the two, they are both ATGs in my book. RJJ isn't seen as GOAT due to the sharpness of his decline, while with Ali it didn't result in him actually getting knocked out like RJJ did. But when you consider where RJJ started, as a Middleweight to go up to Heavyweight then come back down to Lt Heavy his decline was more forgivable when you consider all that he accomplished. I just think it's important to point out how fast and elusive Ali was in the 1960s, and how he slowed down by the time he returned in the 1970. RJJ remained his speed and elusiveness for longer, and while Ali did manage to beat Foreman, he also did struggle in the first fight vs Frazier and in the first Norton fight when he had his jaw broken. And the punishement Ali sustained in some of those 1970s fights were more punishment than RJJ took after he came back down from HW. RJJ was knocked out cold by Tarver, but he didn't take the kind of punishment Ali took in the Frazier and Norton fights that shortened his career. I also think it's important to point out that in between some of RJJ's KO losses, he did show that he was quite capable of fighting with high level of skill and reflexes well into his latter years.

 

even if you dont like him its silly to say he didn't live up to his name. as a package he was the greatest ever, imo

 

He was great for sure. Do I think he'd be competitive in the era of super heavies? **** no but that's to miss the point.

 

Walker Smith Jr is the GOAT..

 

Believe me I'm not disputing how great Roy was in his prime. Both were Close to untouchable in thier respected prime, and both ıf thier immense athletic abilities started to abandon them after a certain point. For Roy, It was draining himself down no 175 after bulking up to fight at heavy. For Ali, It was the long lay off and the punishment he took after it. Where the comprasion makes sense is the Roy that fought Glen Johnson wasn't physically more faded then the Ali that upset Foreman and beat Fraizer in their rubber match. (note that I'm not saying Roy was prime against Johnson, he was faded. Just no more faded than Ali from those 2 fights) One of them showed Great ring IQ and Solid fundamentals after the decline whereas the other relied on his power and workrate.

The fault IMO in your argument is to make age by age comprasion. Every Fighter, no every athlete, age differently. 35 year old Roy was younger in boxing age than a 32,year old Ali. The Roy that got KO1 by Danny Green for example was physically more capable than Ali that lost to Leon Spinks.

 

Foh Ali best ever.

 

Ali was 32 when he fought Foreman. RJJ was 35 when he fought Glen Johnson and Tarver the 2nd time. So basically Ali had visibly slowed down and been beaten and cracked (Frazier 1 and Norton 1) at a younger age than RJJ before RJJ started becoming hittable.

By the time Ali was the age that RJJ was when he got KO’d by Tarver and Glen Johnson, Ali was about to lose to Leon Spinks. Just keep that in mind. Roy went on to win 16 more fights since that point, while Ali was only able to win one more fight, the rematch vs Spinks.

I think you’re falling into the trap of stating that Roy’s decline showed that he never had great ring IQ or solid fundamentals and that’s just flat out false. You can’t be as dominant as Roy Jones Jr was for as long as he was without great ring IQ or solid fundamentals. Also Roy Jones never really relied on his work rate to win him fights. He wasn’t exactly a volume puncher even in his prime. He had incredible hand speed and movement, but in many of his fights Roy took his time to figure a guy out before setting up big punches. Ali actually relied more on his work rate in terms of peppering an opponent with a jab, and just winning rounds by sticking to a jab and headhunting. Unlike Ali, Roy was much more willing to throw hooks and uppercuts and fight inside to land big shots. Both Ali and RJJ have great ring IQ and solid fundamentals. Roy relied on his speed and quickness, and Ali was able to do more in a way after that speed went away, but Ali’s speed actually deteriorated from his prime quicker than Roy’s did, a lot of that had to do with his being away from the sport for 3 years in his prime.

Well your example highlights precisely I’m saying, first of all the Green stoppage was highly controversial, Roy didn’t seem to be in any real trouble, but yes he was still very physically capable then and it showed in the Hopkins rematch a few months after that. But that just shows that Roy was able to fight longer than Ali was because he didn’t take the punishment that Ali took. Roy didn’t sit on the ropes absorbing punches to the body like Ali did. Arguably the rope-a-dope itself shows a lack of fundamentals. Ali made it work by luring Foreman into it which was epic, but I mean in general that’s not a smart thing to do. Roy maintained his boxing ability late into his career, and while he didn’t have the success Ali had in the 1970s, it is fact that Ali was younger than Roy in age when all that happened.

You can look at this many ways, I agree that fighter’s age differently, but Ali had a lot of distractions to attend to, while Roy stayed dedicated to training more than Ali if we’re honest. Some of it wasn’t Ali’s fault, as he was barred from boxing for 3 years and had a lot of media appearances and was more of a political figure than RJJ, but still the fact is that Roy Jones fought much longer than Ali and he didn’t take the punishment that Ali took.

I think the age by age comparison is important, because a lot of times we don’t realize how old Roy was when he got KO’d by Tarver. He was 35. By the time Ali was 35, he had slowed down tremendously and his career as nearly over. Roy Jones did have a sharp decline with the KO losses, but he came back and resurrected his career in a way that Ali couldn’t.

 

Vital is NOT an ATG HW. Please stop with the foolishness..

 

At heavyweight Ali is for me the greatest of all time. He isn't the greatest p4p though, but definitely makes the top 10 imo.