Were Ali the first to use these moves?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, Aug 8, 2017.


  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ali's defense is mostly connected to his footwork but he had some signature head movement also.

    One is when he would turn his head with a hook instead of rolling down under it, and then come back with either an inside hook:

    https://giphy.com/gifs/RIuBsMB4GOr3a

    or going on the outside:

    https://giphy.com/gifs/48QXsvBAXqT8k

    He also had his pull counter (which is one of Mayweathers favorite counters) where he would half pull his head back from a jab and half slip it on the inside, and then come back with a right;

    https://giphy.com/gifs/cgcZo08l2BDt6

    Was Ali the first to use these moves or were there other fighters before him who used them as well?
     
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  2. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Good work compiling the clips.
    To answer your question, no I don't think he's he first to use those moves.

    I will look for examples in a bit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ooof, that first punch is something special.

    The second one, I always thought that punch looked a little insane.
     
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He probably wasn't. Would love some examples.
     
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I love the Bonavena counter, and the pull counter is a special one. Neither of them leaves much margin for error, but that was how Ali liked to play it.
     
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    The way he dodged those hooks is just silly. Don't try this at home !!!
    I don't know if that's skill or stupidity or magic, to be honest. He got away with it somehow.

    The pull back and counter with the right hand is a lot more plausible. I can buy that as a move.

    Yeah, I'm guessing a guy like Tony Canzoneri would be doing stuff like that. I'll have a look.
     
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  7. Radrook

    Radrook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Much of Ali's style was modeled after sugar Ray Robinson whom he greatly admired.

    This content is protected
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    McCallum, Holy and Bowe immediately springs to mind as fighters that would turn their head with a punch (or ride it - to distinguish from rolling it with your shoulder) and come back with a counter, even though I've only seem them do it against overhand rights.

    To ride a punch by turning your head with it must have been done throughout memory, but it's less common to use it as a way to counter.
     
  9. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    So, in all the examples you provided, what Ali is essentially doing is a backwards slip that offsets the opponent, that he follows up with a clean counter.

    Almost every fighter has done some type of this.
    To illustrate how all pervasive this technique is, here is Max Baer doing what Ali does to Frazier in your second clip.
    https://streamable.com/uoi4x

    He slips backwards, twice actually, and make's the guy pay with a counter from the outside.
    Obviously, he doesn't have the same grace or sharpness as Ali, but he is performing the same action.

    Here is WIllie Pep pulling back and landing a counter jab.
    https://streamable.com/lh48r

    Another Pep example.
    https://streamable.com/wfe29

    Randy Turpin Pulls with his hands at his sides, and counters with two hard punches:
    https://streamable.com/tasze

    Jake Lamotta:
    https://streamable.com/590zq

    The Marciano knockdown by Moore:
    https://streamable.com/2vu1g

    Notes:
    - Nobody looked smoother at this than Ali.
    - The more subtle the move, the less impressive it looks with older film.

    If you look closely, most fighters do this kind of thing.
    Even George Foreman had some nice pull counters.
    However, I do think Ali popularized them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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  10. mark ant

    mark ant Canelo was never athletic Full Member

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    Robinson would often slip shots and counter with combo`s to the body, one of the main fights where he used the hook a lot as a counter was the 2nd Fullmer fight, someone replied to me on youtube saying how the preparation Robi had for that fight in terms of tactics was a plan called operation left hook.
     
  11. mark ant

    mark ant Canelo was never athletic Full Member

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    I don`t really think you can compare Bowe`s defense with McCallum`s, maybe he did slip or ride shots but not often enough.
     
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I'm not sure that's what Ali does there though.
    Maybe my eyes are deceiving but what I see is ..
    He dodges the Bonavena punch, cartoon style. Makes it miss. And the way he's leaning back makes it imperative that it does miss, since his head is in no position to ride out the punch or dissipate it if it were connecting. His chin is not down and his body isn't swaying the punch out. It's a fraction from disaster. It's a really bold move.

    Yes, the counter punch is brilliant. One of the best he ever landed, and that's saying something.
     
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Nobody is ever the first to do a given move in boxing.

    Whenever you think that you have found the origin, you will always find it further back.
     
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  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He shifts his whole body weight over to that side, not only the chin, and to the back foot, and thereby makes it possible to pivot back with force with the hook. It's the same principle as what they do, but more complicated since he has nothing planted to the back and to the left really. But he compensates by taking a half step back with the right before turning, which he also does with the pull counter. Very intricate and definitely nothing you should try at home. You're right about that.
     
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  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I didn't. Just as examples of two fighters that rode punches like that. Not a general comparison.