MAX BAER IN PLACE OF FOREMAN?

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. I didn't say your observations were wrong, but simply asked you look at what you saw in a different context, and namely put yourself in his opponent's shoes. I've seen people complain the right that finished Schmeling was telegraphed, which it might have been to the camera, but there was no way Schmeling himself could have seen that punch.

You can say that for any fighter that lost, and frankly a lazy way of analyzing a fight. You or more less don't want to credit Baer or consider the things he did in the ring and how they were effective against one of the best technicians of all time.

The critical matador maneuver both men do, I asked to be emphasized are not that different at all. There's no way you can argue different grades of schooling for their execution.

 

No no no.

While Baer might not have been as strong as Foreman, he was almost certainly still a lot stronger than Frazier.

Great as Frazier was, he was one of the weaker lineal champions, in terms of physical strength.

Frazier was nothing like Louis stylistically.

Louis dismantled Baer by using surgical counter punching.

This was not Frazier's forte.

 

Did he though?

I will grant you that Frazier was better than anybody that Baer ever defeated, but once you get past Foreman's top three wins, his resume starts to thing out somewhat.

You could definitely make the case that Baer defeated more top heavyweights.

One area where I would definitely give the edge to Baer, is that he proved himself against a much wider rang of styles at the elite level.

 

I'm not assuming you think my observations are wrong, and it's no problem if you do.
Baer simply doesn't do it for me.
I recognise his power and occasionally when he cuts loose and lets both hands go he looks quite formidable, but he spends a lot of his time posturing in that upright stance, he has no footwork to call of and no jab. I just see him as a very messy and indisciplined fighter who fundamentals aren't very good.
Paradoxically in some ways though it shows how good he was because he achieved a helluva lot with a big right hand and a solid chin.
Just my opinion but I think fighters like Frazier and Foreman would have decimated him, you can't face those guys standing upright in front of them with little regard for defence.

 

It's the HW division. Fighters get rocked.

Baer looked sloppy because he was sloppy. Athleticism? When was this ever on display?

This is a reasonable point. A fighter of Schmeling's calibre was no novice when it came to avoiding punishing shots, and for Baer to land as many of them as he did, he had to have been doing something right.

Lol.

How consistently did Baer do this though? Foreman was almost constantly pushing or pivoting opponents, controlling the ring space and forcing his opponents into his danger zone. It was a core part of his tactics. Baer does this occasionally, but far more often he simply lets the opponent close distance on him or push him back. It's like comparing Liston's jab with an instance of a Mercer jab. While the latter might look like they're imitating or even surpassing the former, the difference is all in the application over the course of the fight.

 

He did, but mostly when he had an opponent on the defense. The Comisky fight is the rare filmed opportunity we see him against another aggressive puncher of size, and he showed more defense awareness when under fire.

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I disagree on the foot work, but he certainly didn't use the jab in the traditional sense but I still think he made effective use of the left hand.

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Foreman actually did similar things against Frazier. Not so much about landing jabs but using the left to create space, manipulate, and measure.

I think against Fraizer, Bear would use similar tactics as Foreman, using his aggression to move him into punches and trap him:

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Baer looked to be of a similar strength level to Chuvalo or someone like that. He was a strong man, but not otherworldly strong, and a lot of his strength didn't manifest itself into useable strength in the ring, the way Foreman's did.

Frazier might not have been classically strong (his performance on Superstars confirms that much) but he possessed great explosive power and ruggedness in the ring. He would certainly impose itself on Baer moreso than Baer would on him, based on their styles alone.

I don't suggest he would beat Baer like Louis did, only that he'd beat him in a similarly emphatic fashion, albeit in his own inimitable way. I see Baer being pushed back, clubbed with big hooks repeatedly while he tries to get his own shots off, buckled and busted up to body and head, getting stopped somewhere in the middle or late rounds, or possibly going the distance.

A comparison of resumes is kind of secondary in this discussion. Yes, Foreman's resume lacks depth, but he performed so much better at the top level and was so emphatic in victory that it doesn't really matter.

I know that was what you were referring to in my post but regarding Baer's potential chances, I don't think he did anything that would lead us to believe he'd be able to match or even approach Foreman's performance.

 

I would not say that the Frazier that fought Foreman in 73 was a better fighter in any way than Schmeling.

 

It's a pattern. Frazier was vulnerable to right hands in the early rounds.

Every time he was in the ring. He was fast, agile, and strong with great stamina and long arms, what more do you want?
If you can't see it in his fights, here he is on a speed bag. I have to question the rationale of anyone that claims Baer was not athletic, the guy was a specimen, it was a huge part of his success.

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He was known for his body attack. What's funny about that?

When does Baer do this?

I'm comparing a common Baer tactic to a common Foreman tactic, not isolating the execution of individual punches.

 

I agree that whatever Baer's chances they're going to come in the early rounds. Would he be able to capitalise though?

I have to question the rationale of anyone who says Baer was fast or agile. He was a wild hitting slugger with a bit of craft that tended to outsize his opponents. It was his size and reach coupled with his decent chin and higher than average power relative to his opponents that was the cornerstone of a lot of his success, not his athleticism.

If you don't see it, you don't see it I guess.

He does it throughout the Schmeling fight. Schmeling has no problems getting into Max's wheelhouse on numerous occasions, where they lock up as was the case with a lot of 30s fighters and exchange bodyshots and short chopping blows in close. At other times he pressurises Baer into backing up through his own forward movement.

How many times did opponents back a prime Foreman up to the ropes?

It wasn't a common Baer tactic though, not to anywhere near the same degree it was for Foreman. For Foreman it was the very essence of his style, which was all about controlling the opponent and cutting off the ring. It was as integral to his style as the jab and grab was to Wlad or the bob and weave was to Marciano. For Baer it was just something he occasionally did.

 

Given he would be the second best finisher, Frazier ever fought, most likely.

He's faster and more mobile than all of his filmed opponents minus Joe Louis, even in his final fights, he seems to hold all the athletic advantages. And he's not firing straight punches, he gets off wild loops with tremendous quickness, especially in combination and often darting in and out of range very quickly.

Of course you also have no comment on the speed bag footage, where is footage of Foreman working a bag that quick and running sprints?

You want to challenge the claim Baer was a great body puncher, but you are scared to do so directly for whatever reason.

" A vicious and almost ceaseless attack to the body brought Baer a popular decision."-Levinsky II
"Baer beat Schaaf around the ring and into the ropes with a savage attack to the head and body. "-Schaaf II
"Baer continued to hammer him with body blows. Irwin stepped between the men and disentangled Campbell's arms from the ropes. It looked as if he intended to stop the fight, for Campbell had been pounded apparently helpless in a few seconds."-Campbell
"Several times he seemed to be going at full steam. When he did, Baer unleashed his body attack."-Farr

He also stopped opponents with body punches, and one of course on film he beat the hell out of Braddock's body, so I ask again, what is so funny?

Your original comment was "but far more often he simply lets the opponent close distance on him or push him back." You than describe instances of Baer backing up on his own from pressure and or participating an exchanges on the inside. Almost every time he back into the ropes against Schmeling, he grabs him and looks to spin him, it's a trap that Schmeling gets wise to so Baer backs off, funny moment where he congratulates him after finally avoiding it.

Your original implication was Baer did nothing to control range and allowed himself to be bullied, which is preposterous.

Not really, both Foreman and Baer primarily liked to pressure their opponents, and rarely were against opponents looking to come at them consistently.

 

He would need to rock him and drop him then fight out of his skin to get a stoppage. More likely Frazier has a few rugged moments, then begins to time Baer's wild swings and begins to swing things in his favour, from which there's only going to be one winner.

What do sprints have to do with boxing? Athleticism needs to be pertinent to the sport. Deontay Wilder is supposedly athletic but fights like a flailing octopus. And where did I say Foreman was athletic in the traditional sense?

Nothing of Baer on footage screams athletic specimen to me. Rather, I see a clumsy, often off balance slugger with average footspeed and a decided lack of explosiveness (one of the hallmarks of athleticism in a boxing sense). If he was faster than his opponents it speaks more for the woeful lack of physical quality in the division at that time than it does for Baer himself.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe Baer was able to run faster than anyone at the time, jump higher, lift more weights, bang more pussay, but none of those things communicated themselves to his actual ring performances.

I just couldn't be bothered to post the gifs of him wailing away at the body like a wind up fighting robot, plus the site now doesn't appear to be working for me at the moment.

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Go to 0:44 and again at 1:50. Notice also how often Baer just mindlessly follows Braddock around the ring lunging at him with off balance shots. That's not the sign of a good ring technician.

Bodyshots aren't traditionally an arsenal of many heavyweights, but even so I wouldn't put Baer anywhere near the best proponents of the craft.

Like I said above, note how Baer fails to cut off the ring on Braddock. You think Foreman would have let Braddock go more than a couple of rounds before battering him into a bloody mess?

Foreman never let opponents back him up on his own resolve, neither did he just let opponents lead him around the ring. He was constantly working to cut off angles, press fighters back, and limit their dimensions in the ring. Baer did none of this, or not to anywhere near the same level of quality or consistency.

Your pointing out of the tactic in the Schmeling fight is well noted, but it doesn't make comparisons with Foreman any more meaningful, less so, since it falls more into a counterpuncher's toolset.

Except when they were, when Foreman's quality truly came to the fore.

 

Cheers. It's a lively debate to be sure.

 

If Baer rocks Frazier, I don't see him letting him off the hook. Unless we are talking an injured past prime Baer, even then he would still be the second best finisher Frazier ever faced.

Speed. That's why it was part of his prize fight training.

That's a matter of technique not athletics.

He looks rather fast on his feet and coordinated here.

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There are times he appeared off balance and clumsy..usually when selling out for the kill or clowning, but that's not a rule of a thumb that should define his ability.

His attacks could certainly be explosive

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Ah, the whole "he's not fast, everyone else is just slow" argument.

Of course his athletic ability is communicated in his actual ring performances. It's there on film.

For one thing, it should be noted that Baer's hands were legit busted going into this fight and it effected his overall peformance. It was also still a close fight, and there is nothing wrong with Baer's body work here. He's bending his knees and getting leverage against a guy that's in his chest, nothing robotic about it at all, and he certainly forced Braddock into a shell.

I can't think of any reason why a fighter that worked the body more than others and had a great deal of noted success with it should not be considered one of the best proponents.

It's pretty well known Baer was injured going into this fight, when it was investigated for a fix, it was determined that Baer had been hiding how bad his hands was. And Braddock was an excellent technician with an iron chin.

It's like pulling up Foreman vs Jimmy Young, and saying, look how he fails to cut off the ring. Baer was erratic, but he did beat one of the best technicians of his era in Max Schmeling. Foreman doesn't have a win against a guy that crafty, so maybe there was something to Baer's more varied approach....

It depends on the situation. In general, Baer fought off the back foot more than Foreman. For one thing, Baer had faster feet and more mobility, so he didn't have to pressure constantly to be effective. Bear's ability to switch gears really isn't a negative.

This is the best "kill mode" Baer we have on film. And he is quite excellent at cutting off Levinsky and taking him apart.

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Given it's a tactic Foreman successfully used against Frazier, it's pretty damn meaningful to the conversation.