MAX BAER IN PLACE OF FOREMAN?

Are you drunk?
BAER!
4 attempts at his name, lol.

 

Frazier got up over and over against Foreman, the fight was still waved off with him on his feet and protesting.

I would point to Schmeling and Comiskey as excellent filmed examples of Baer efficiently finishing a hurt fighter. Where are your examples of Baer being a sloppy finisher coming from?

The idea of a fighter being a great finisher, is a demonstrated ability to consistently finish off a hurt or vulnerable opponent. Quarry and Ali are not in Baer's class in that regard.

No, I said if you can't see his athleticism in the ring, you can see it in the footage of him working the speed bag and running sprints.

That's not a fact, that is your opinion, and I disagree strongly.

We were discussing foot speed when you brought up Parker. Parker is slow of foot and not the most mobile guy, but his hand speed is comparable to Baer's.

1. Very slow
2. Comparable speed.
3. Spiz ducked into a short counter punch.

Doesn't matter if you are impressed, the clips demonstrate explosive punching from Baer.

Baer's era had three of the greatest technicians to ever compete at the weight: Schmeling, Young Stribling, and Loughran. Sharkey was good too.

The length of the clip and Braddock's reactions are irrelevant, they are examples of good body punching from Baer.

Which in no way discredits the quality of the punches.

If Sergei did that more often, he would be. The Brewster fight is one of the best individual displays of body punching in the heavyweight division.

Straw Man bull****. Try addressing my actual comments in the future.

If you recognize Klompton as an authority that's your problem.

Appealing to the stone.

Nirvana fallacy.

The fact that Baer got his man closer to the ropes more often, actually make a stronger case for him.

 

So unless Baer has a lenient referee, he'll have his work cut out trying to get a stoppage, right?

The Schmeling fight was exactly what I had in mind with that comment. Desperately slow, telegraphed shots, half of which miss, followed by a forearm blindside and a big looping right which Schmeling still gets up from. Hardly stunning stuff is it?

Baer was a harder puncher, but his finishing abilities at the top level were not in either man's league. He knocked over a lot more bums, that's for sure.

I don't need to see a video of a man sprinting to know if he's athletic in a boxing sense. I can determine that with my own eyes. Baer was not.

You're free to do that. My definition of fast obviously differs from yours.

Parker has demonstrably quicker hands than Baer ever did. His footspeed might be comparable to Baer's though, I'll give you that.

The first one's actually the most comparable. In fact, you could put the first clip together with any of Baer's wild haymakers and it wouldn't look much different.

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Not really. There are numerous better examples.

Three small men who'd be badly outsized in the 70s. Their technical skills were quality though, so I'm willing to stand corrected on that one.

Greatest technicians ever though? Sorry, can't go that far.

Which were posted to prove a point, the point being that Baer was one of the best HW bodypunchers of all time. In that they failed.

If a large number of other fighters are capable of doing the same thing then it lowers the overall standing in which such punches can be considered.

That's a fair comment.

I did. You posed the question why a fighter who used a certain technique a lot and had reasonable success with it against a middling crowd of fighters shouldn't be considered one of the best proponents of said technique in an all time sense. I highlighted the erroneousness of that line of thinking.

It's a well written and well reasoned breakdown of Braddock's career. Whether or not Klompton is considered an authority in wider circles is irrelevant to me. Professionalism is no guarantee of objectiveness or deep understanding.

Not sure what you're on about to be honest. The clip didn't show what you purported it to show.

Foreman got his opponents back to the ropes by direct means, not by trickery. With tricks there's always the possibility that the opponent will get wise to it, as Schmeling did.

 

Ref incompetence is not an argument for a fighter's survival capabilities.

Okay, now that we have a specific example, let's destroy your argument by applying proper context.

1. Williams: Your clip was from round 2, not the actual stoppage. In round 3, Ali was show boating and pot shooting Williams as he stood in the center of the ring when the ref had enough. If anything, Ali was looking to prolong this mismatch, not finish Big Cat.

2. Shavers: First round, Quarry flurried for a full minute, most of his punches are missing as Shavers bobs and weaves. Good aggressive finish but hardly precise. Quarry actually misses about 4 straight punches when Shavers just drops.

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3. Schemling: It's a 10th round power punch flurry against a badly hurt man in ear muffs on the ropes, so it doesn't matter how telegraphed as long as it's ceaseless and effective. Baer clearly is not missing half of his punches as he mixes up the angles and smacks down Schmeling's guard.

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The Schmeling finish is much better than Shavers and Williams. Schmeling is the better fighter and is took out within 30 seconds of being rocked.

Sprinting develops athleticism in a boxing sense as explained. And if you can't wrap your mind around that, why do you refuse to comment on Baer's speed bag work?

Straw Man, I didn't say they had comparable foot speed. You said you could find clips of Parker moving around as well as Baer in the clips I posted. You won't.

Strawman. These were the punches I said that demonstrated Baer's explosiveness.

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You said you could easily match them, but failed to do so, so now you are making up your own Baer examples where he is not being explosive. When you have to build a Strawman, it means you have no counter.

Changing the Goal Posts, so you aren't really standing corrected.

Straw man. I already made my case about Baer with a series of article quotes. You tried to counter this with two brief clips of the Braddock fight you thought were unflattering. In response to that, I posted him throwing a variety of good power punches to the body over the course of the fight.

I never said those individual punches were unique to Baer nor do they have to be, the purpose of the clips was to show your "robotic wind up" observation was a cherry pick. I provided a more well rounded showcase of Baer's effective body punching in the fight.

More Straw Man BS. I said "a fighter that worked the body more than others and had a great deal of noted success " I mentioned nothing about reasonable success against a middling crowd.

Good for Klompton.

" Foreman luring Frazier near the ropes and yanking him around."

That's what they show. You claimed they were hardly the same because Frazier wasn't near the ropes even though he was.

What are those red and blue rope like things hanging there?

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I suppose you want to argue the definition of "near" And we'll have to compare clips of Schmeling/Baer and estimate the distance between Frazier's back foot and Schmeling's back foot and ensure they are identical distance...nah, Nirvana fallacy. You can't accept Foreman and Baer doing similar things, so you want to argue irrelevant nuances and claim they are hardly the same. No go.

In both instances, a man lured his opponent near the ropes and yanked him around with intentions of cornering him. There is no difference.

 

You seem to be confusing finishing ability with killer instinct. Ali could have finished Williams off at any time he wanted. That he didn't do it till the third was his own choice.

Baer took about thirty punches to finally put Schmeling down after that big right, including some that are just comically bad. Schmeling then gets up and is stopped on his feet shortly afterwards. It was a long, drawn out and sloppy display of finishing that a better or more resilient opponent would have survived.

Did it get the job done? Yes. Was it a great display of Baer's fearsome power and finishing abilities? Hell no.

Because anyone can look good on a speed bag. I've seen Mariusz Wach look half decent on one. Is he athletic?

I was throwing you a bone. Baer and Parker's handspeed isn't even in the same stratosphere.

I already showed you what I thought surpassed his efforts in an earlier post. The point of comparing those two clips was to show you that what you consider to be "very slow" is actually how fast Baer really threw much of the time.

The clip wasn't unrepresentative of his style, nor was it picked to be unflattering, since it shows part of one of his most brutal stoppages over his best career win. One which you bigged up earlier in the post, in fact.

No, I still think fighters in Baer's time lacked athleticism in the main, but a couple at least seemed to know what they were doing technically.

So he can throw average looking bodyshots at a middling opponent as well as clockwork ones. Good for him.

No, that's my own interpretation of his achievements.

This is a futile argument anyway. If you choose to consider Baer an ATG body puncher then feel free to do so.

There is every difference in the manner, consistency or effectiveness both fighters employ the move in the ring. I've already pointed this out.

Baer backpeddles to get Schmeling to come to him then uses his strength to yank him (almost throw him) around so that he can pin him against the ropes. He does it sporadically throughout the fight.

Foreman stands his ground or presses forward on Frazier, and employs a deflection when Frazier attempts to come at him. He does this constantly throughout the fight and expends relatively little energy doing so.

That the moves superficially resemble one another is the least important thing here.

 

Finishing ability can't be rated on the theoretical.

You can imagine anything you want.

You have no standard of comparison. Of your two examples of precise finishes, one turned out to be theoretical, the other was far more sloppier and drawn out than Baer/Schmeling.

Wach really doesn't look decent on the speed bag.

Wlad vs Wach (speed bag) Wlad wins

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Wlad vs Baer (speed bag) Baer wins

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Hyperbole nonsense. Handspeed is comparable in both combination and haymakers. Both men, damn quick with their hands for throwing loaded shots.

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I'm still waiting for your examples of Parker matching Baer's foot speed and movement.

Context. That clip is from the 10th round of a competitive Championship fight when he had his man hurt and was throwing with power. It's a great finish but not how Baer "threw much of the time"

Nope. You are acting like a child now and I don't play that BS. Your only argument against Baer's body punching was two short clips from the Braddock fight, criticizing his technique despite them being unique and effective.

When faced with other clips from same fight where his technique was more text book, you said they weren't unique or effective enough. Now you are rendering it all irrelevant by pulling the "middling opponent" card. This is Goal Post Moving at it's worst. You are obviously making up your argument as you go along.

Yes...

1. Video shows Foreman taking back steps throughout the first round. That's why he ends up close to the ropes.

2. Deflection....in other words, he uses his strength to yank (almost throw Frazier around) so that he can pin him against the ropes. Of course the physically varies on an individual basis....Nirvana fallacy.

3. Constantly..sporadically. It's about the situation. Schmeling was more dynamic in approach than Fraizer.

 

Who ever knocked Baer unconscious?

 

Joe Louis kicked the living **** out of Baer and stopped him in 4 rounds. The only reason Baer wasn't out cold is because he quit on one knee after being knocked down again by Louis. Had Baer gotten up after that last knockdown, Louis would likely have laid him out for good. So would Frazier.

 

Joe eats his lunch

 

There is a big difference between saying that Louis would do it, and saying that Frazier would have done it.

Baer had a chin like an anvil.

 

I am not maligning Baer's chin. His chin is first class. But, Baer's defense was not exactly his strong suit. Eating punches like Baer was known to do is a dangerous proposition against Joe Frazier. Louis punished him badly for it. So would Frazier.

 

Fine.

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That concrete enough for you?

I don't recall Quarry throwing slapping backhands or forearm blindsides to Shavers, so I'd like to know in what way you think that finish was sloppier.

From the time both men are hurt it takes about thirty seconds for them to hit the canvas. They're both then stopped on their feet several seconds after action resumes. So again, in what way was the Quarry stoppage more drawn out?

He doesn't look as clumsy as he does in the ring though. That's my point.

And if you think Baer looks better on a speed bag than Wlad then that only highlights the irrelevance of using that as an accurate gauge on in-ring athleticism.

You can see it in all of his fights. Watch Takam and Ruiz if you want good examples.

When he had his man hurt or was looking to do so? Sure it was. And that's how he'd be forced to fight Frazier. God knows he won't be outboxing him.

No, I just don't find your argument persuasive in the least. If Baer was an ATG body puncher then there'd be more to show than this.

But like I said earlier, this argument is a dead end.

Show me a fight against a come forward guy where Baer exhibits a similar gameplan to Foreman then. Baer fought plenty of those so it shouldn't be hard.

 

It's a fine finish of an exhausted fighter but if you want to argue Ali as one of the elite HW finishers you got your work cut for you.

The backhands and forearm extension are not sloppy, they were well calculated and effective dirty tactics Baer was able to hide from the official.

Quarry is not as economical or creative as Baer, he is wilder and misses in bunches, and as I already pointed out, the final 4 punch flurry before the KD doesn't even appear to land. It's a fine stoppage but I fail to see how it can be described as "precise"

Finishing just wasn't Quarry or Ali's forte, so it's puzzling you would handicap yourself with such a position. It's like claiming Holyfield is a better finisher than Sonny Liston...just why?

Schmeling is hurt by Baer at 20:43 of the youtube video, and goes down at 21:13.

Shavers is hurt and retreats to the ropes at 14:16 of the youtube video, he goes down at 14:56. So it's a bit more drawn out, give or take a second.

Your criticism of the Baer stoppage was that it was drawn out but praise the Quarry which is longer anyway you cut it.

It's an accurate demonstration of his below average hand speed.

Baer is faster than Wlad overall, so it's not surprising.

I've seen these fights, not once does he demonstrate the mobility and foot speed of Baer. In fact, I scored the fight to Ruiz. Parker was too slow on his feet.

Round 1
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Round 10
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I know speed can sometimes be hard to gauge but it's obvious one guy is way lighter on his feet.

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"Out Boxing" Frazier in the traditional sense of the word is futile, Ali couldn't even do it.

There is, my clips were in response to your accusation of robotic bodywork in one specific match. We have very little footage of Baer at his prime. We still have enough footage overall to conclude his reputation as one of the division's great body punchers was well earned.

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Nirvana fallacy. You are asking for a clone of Frazier/Foreman, and based off past behavior, will describe any Baer opponent presented as middling. I don't have time for that. I think Baer's handling of Schmeling's pressure and Levinksy is adequate.

 

I'm not arguing that. I'm saying he's a better finisher than Baer.

Why would you willingly backhand someone when you can just throw a punch instead? A backhand has no power, and threatens to break the small bones in your knuckles if you land wrong. Else why is it you never see any other top finisher backhand as part of their finishing strategy?

Quarry not being as "imaginative" as Baer is just a roundabout way of saying he is more disciplined in his attack. He is certainly not wilder; in fact his shots have far greater compactness and accuracy, as the video shows. He just doesn't hit as hard, which means he needs to land more shots to get his man out of there. The final four punch combo clearly lands, save for one shot. It was an efficient dispatching of a hurt opponent by a man not known for his knockout power.

Holyfield was actually a great finisher, and stopped more quality opponents than Liston ever did. His speed, savagery and precision when he had his man hurt were unmatched. But again, like Quarry, he often found himself underpowered. Finishing ability vs power. They're not synonymous.

I mark the point where Shavers is truly hurt after the combo Quarry throws against him on the ropes. That's when it's clear his legs are rubbery and he's no longer able to defend properly.

Point with Quarry is that he doesn't let up or give his opponent ways back into the fight but sustains a constant barrage of sharp chopping blows that culminate in the knockdown. Compare that to Baer's slow sloppy assault with his arms swinging all over the place and it's night and day.

So Quarry took a little longer to get the result? Isn't that understandable considering what a fearsome puncher Baer is supposed to be? Why did Baer take so long to finish Schmeling off after that initial right hand? He more or less had him out on his feet at that point.

If it was an accurate representation of his handspeed he'd be hitting the bag a lot slower than that.

At no point in his career was Baer faster than Wlad.

Parker's footwork is uneducated, but he displays a good ability to spring forward and a slightly less impressive ability to leap back and move laterally throughout a fight. Watch the Cojanu fight if those other two don't do it for you.

Then that leaves Baer to brawl with him, and I don't see that ending well for him.

I'm not asking for a clone, just a fight that shows he can emulate something approaching Foreman's performance against Frazier: constant pressure, disciplined use of the jab, fighting tall, maintaining distance and ring control through use of the hands. You can isolate one or two of these qualities in spots but consistency was the key to Foreman's victory in that fight, and that's something I see as sorely lacking in Baer's makeup.

 

Bear has a 77% win KO rate. Which is absurdly high among his 30s peers and holds up historically with the likes of Lennox Lewis, Sonny Liston, and Joe Louis. Beyond the statistics, he was simply known as a fearsome finisher. Ali is historically on the average scale and has a reputation for letting hurt opponents hang around. You are taking on a contrarian view but arguing like it should be common sense that a strong case isn't needed for.

Warning: I rearranged your points a bit to organize my responses thematically, it is by no means a way to misrepresent you.

Oh boy. Power and Finishing ability may not be synonymous but t o finish an opponent, you have to be able to hurt your opponent. My argument was Baer could hurt Frazier and finish him. Quarry and Ali lack power and struggled to hurt Frazier, so there is no point in arguing them as better finishers.

You are taking a view of authority over a Heavyweight Champion that got great results. Against Schmeling, the first back hand set up a clean left hook and the follow ups split the guard for a big right hand. And yes, the back hand (though some are forward) is simply a unique tool Baer perfected to destroy defensive fighter's guards. It was also an era where 6 oz gloves were still common, so techniques were different.

Curiously one of the most celebrated boxers at present, Lomachenko, actually does similar things you criticized Baer for doing:

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One's man wild swings is another man's compact accuracy...

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Punch 1: misses in slow motion
Punch 2: clear miss
Punch 3: ugly but connects
Punch 4: clear miss

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It was part of your original point, but now it's time to shift the goal posts again, and I have no interest in that.

This was a botched analogy on your point, and best just to let it go. You thought Wach looked disproportionally quick on the bags but contrasting him to Wlad who actually is quick, killed this thing dead.

Because you are stubbornly clinging to ideas in the face of damning evidence.

No interest in the Cojanu fight, visual evidence just showed a past prime Baer leave Parker's two "best" performances in the dust. It's not even close, Parker has mud in his shoes. It really shouldn't be all that surprising given one guy is a 6'2" 210 pound sprint runner, and the other is a 6'4" 250 pound Hulk, but hey, Parker fights are filmed in color, right?

Brawling with Baer would not be in Frazier's best interests. He's going to get ripped with uppercuts, and hooks to the body and head from a huge puncher with a telephone pole reach, who's uncommonly light on his feet and crafty enough to turn him in the event he does get close enough.