MAX BAER IN PLACE OF FOREMAN?

I love these old clips. I've never Baer fight before. Those looping haymakers he's firing from the hip are a thing of beauty and power. Actually does look like they would be hard to detect when and where they are coming from. Followed up by those back fists? why not? adds to the pressure.. looks to me, he might be a very hot and cold fighter tho ...

 

With all due respect this guy should never be mentioned in the same breath as Foreman.

Compared to George he has no speed, no footwork, no balance, no punch volume. He doesn't throw punches the same. Just look at his 1-2.

The only similarity is that they both sometimes have their hands low the same way. Some trivial aesthetic in the grand scheme.

Foreman had serious skill compared to this guy. He moved his head and had rhythm and IQ. Not to mention he was an Olympic Gold Medalist.

 

I must say this debate was great to follow because of the clips used with mostly fair representation of arguments. It was done with more taste than what some others have been able to do. Thumbs up!

 

Stats without context are meaningless. Baer fought in an historically poor era against men, on the whole, a lot smaller than the 70s era guys. I'd expect him to notch up a huge KO ratio fighting that type of opposition.

Ali played around a lot and could have finished off a lot of opponents that he let off the hook for one reason or another. It was clear he did this out of choice, not due to lack of ability. When he went for the kill he tended to get it. And he did it against much greater opposition than Baer.

That's not to say he was a heavier puncher than Baer or a meaner guy, but his ability to string together hurtful shots on a dazed opponent with the aim of finishing them off was proven more than enough times throughout his career.

That's true, but you also need the ability to land that power cleanly and consistently. Baer could hurt Frazier with fewer shots than either man but he lacked the speed or precision to do so, or to follow up effectively in the case that he does hurt Joe.

Ali hurt Frazier. Of course he did.

https://media.giphy.com/media/cZ7xczvE9m0Zq/giphy.gif

Frazier had incredible recuperative capabilities however. That's why I don't rate Baer's chances against him in the slightest. Even if he did manage to hurt him, there's no way Joe doesn't claw his way back into the fight.

Baer and Lomachenko have nothing in common except for their two arms and legs. I really don't see what comparison you're looking to draw with those clips.

The only thing you could accuse Quarry of doing recklessly there was lunging. He's certainly not doing anything as bad as this:

https://media.giphy.com/media/11Uwd4ekOtqfVS/giphy.gif

How can you not see that Baer was a whole lot wilder than Quarry ever was?

The point I was making, which I already explained to you, was that anyone can potentially look good on a speed bag, or any static object in general. I don't believe I ever compared Wach favourably to Wlad, or even to Baer. The words I used were semi-decent, as in not a total klutz like he appears in the ring.

What damning evidence? Wlad's demonstrably quicker in the ring. Always has been.

Parker's two best wins are not necessarily his two best performances from an athletic POV. He was being pushed back, made to work, and forced to dig deep. At times made to look quite ragged.

Against Cojanu he could more or less do what he liked.

His size is irrelevant, as is the fact that he fights in colour. If Baer displayed the same level of athleticism we wouldn't be having this discussion.

That all sounds great on paper, but the reality I suspect would be far different. Do I have proof of that? No. My prediction comes solely, as yours does, from a weighing of the evidence and an attempted mental simulation of the likely unfolding of their fight. I simply can't see a man as dogged, tough, and battle hardened as Frazier come to grief at the hands of the slow and ponderous Baer.

Baer's uppercuts, which mostly consisted of chopping arm shots thrown from a clinch either going forwards or backwards, are not going to trouble Frazier the way Foreman's did. They lack the power and the delivery to be Frazier's downfall, and I can't recall him ever stopping anyone with them anyhow. As for his overhand right that'll be swerved all night long. His jab likewise.

That leaves him with very few weapons to play with, and that means he's a dead man.

 

I'm not comparing them in terms of quality or resume or achievements. Janitor asked for a fighter with a more similar style to Foreman than Baer. That's the reason I mentioned Larsen.

Foreman's light years ahead of him of course, but stylistically they're a lot more similar than you're making out. Similar upright stance, similar defensive style, similar method of creating distance via a double handed push, similar general demeanour in the ring (against vastly different levels of opposition).

That's a lot closer to anything Baer did.

 

Gotchu.
Yeah form wise, I see your point.
Punching wise, closer to Baer.

 

The context of this argument is you challenging my speculation that Baer could finish a hurt Frazier. Your argument is that Ali and Quarry are better finishers, and presumably if they couldn't stop Frazier, then Baer could not. Ali and Quarry are not known as big punchers, both defeated by Frazier, who showed little respect for their power and ultimately walked them down. So I don't see the point in this argument.

Stander and Foreman did not need speed or precision to hurt Frazier, what they had was power.

With all do respect I don't think Frazier was that hurt there.

That's pretty optimistic thinking, to say Baer has no chance. Baer has the x factors of power, size, and durability, that cannot be underestimated in the HW division.

Fascinating. How does one watch these two clips and claim they see nothing in common? The very things you said that made Baer sloppy are in fact employed by the best technician in the game today.

https://streamable.com/ih5jy

https://streamable.com/slpvh

There's nothing bad here. Baer uses back hands and swipes to break Schmeling's guard and set up a crushing right hand. It's very good work.

Because your example of "precision " was Quarry going uncharacteristically wild and swinging for the fences against a shelled up Earnie Shavers, in contrast to one of the best finishes of all time.

And that failed, as Wach didn't look good on the speed bag in contrast to real elite heavies in Wlad and Baer.

Pretty much this whole thread is you being unable to accept visual evidence.

You recommended them..lol

No, not the same, far superior. You said the Takam and Ruiz fights would show Parker moving like Baer, they didn't. That's that.

You seem to have a weird mental block where you have an idea that a fighter never known as being slow and ponderous simply is in your eyes, and you can't be swayed on that. To give Frazier a chance in this, you are not matching him up against Max Baer, but a fighter of your own creation weak in all the areas the real Baer excelled in.

Baer threw lots of different uppercuts and they would trouble Frazier even if they aren't Foreman's.

Swerved all night long...okay.

https://streamable.com/vkw7y

 

Most of the key Baer clips used:


Foreman comparison:

https://streamable.com/a1urt

https://streamable.com/84ups

https://streamable.com/l3pvm


foot speed and mobility:

https://streamable.com/tpndc

https://streamable.com/p2g63

https://streamable.com/fln2v


Explosive power punch leads:

https://streamable.com/f05a2

https://streamable.com/mxd37


Wlad vs Baer on Speed Bag

https://streamable.com/9rhko


Hand Speed in Combination:

https://streamable.com/5g3al


Body Attack:

https://streamable.com/c259v


Lomachenko Forearm Trick Comparison:

https://streamable.com/slpvh

https://streamable.com/ih5jy

 

So far your only arguments for Baer being able to emulate Foreman are his stoppage of Schmeling and his apparently comparable skills and punching power. The first is a matter of record; I just take issue to what conclusions can be drawn from it. The second is your opinion, ill founded on poorly chosen and baffling clips and a clearly biased and subjective reading of said material.

In other words I find your argument weak and will continue to challenge it unless you can convince me otherwise.

Being able to hurt Frazier and being able to stop him were leagues apart in terms of their attainability. A couple of people achieved the former, but Foreman was the only one to achieve the latter.

Baer could hurt or drop Frazier; I've not outright stated he couldn't. What I find extremely unlikely is that he'd then be able to drop him multiple times thereafter to the point where Frazier was unable to get up again. That's where speed and precision comes in, or in Foreman's case expert closing down of the ring.

You're free to think that. Frazier quit on his stool shortly afterwards, so he was clearly not in any position to continue.

He got up off the deck something like six times against a prime Foreman, so I'd say it was perfectly sensible thinking. Baer's slow and sloppy shots would give Frazier numerous chances to recover his wits and counter shoot.

You were referring to Baer's backhands, not his forearm. I never stated that particular technique was sloppily done, only that it was borderline illegal. Wlad used to do it back in the day as did lots of high class operators. Tyson Fury used it against Cunningham. In fact Baer's usage of the technique is far closer to that example than it is to Loma's, given its application.

https://streamable.com/slpvh

https://media.giphy.com/media/C2qwrIBDQ9EgE/giphy.gif

When you're waving your arms around like a merry go round I have my reservations that you're doing anything close to good work. Baer got the job done and kudos to him, but Schmeling would have been dropped a lot quicker by a more skilful operator given similar circumstances.

You must be a huge Deontay Wilder fan to rate Baer's finishing abilities so highly.

You consider Baer's "very slow" punches against Schmeling one of the best finishes of all time? Why, when there are so many better examples to choose from?

And you call Quarry's stoppage wild? I just think you're seeing what you want to see.

For the last time I wasn't comparing Wach directly to either Baer or Wlad. I'd have thought you'd have got that by now, but apparently not.

That's quite rich I must say.

As overall examples of Parker's abilities against two top level opponents, including his footwork. The Cojanu fight was little more than a sparring session, but it shows Parker's ability to be light on his feet.

Parker's footwork is observable in all his fights however, so I'm not sure what you think you're proving here.

I always try to view fighters as they are, not how history or common knowledge depicts them. It often puts me at odds with a lot of classic fans, whose bias and nostalgia colours their judgement of older fighter in various ways. I don't claim to be infallible in my observations but I always try to back my opinions up with video evidence if possible.

Your own observations of the Ugonoh Breazeale knockdown were that Ugonoh's punches were "very slow" yet a side by side comparison with Baer vs Schmeling showed that they were almost exactly the same speed.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xwO0zVSuy49aM/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/ke6ZF20MIN9ja/giphy.gif

You also tried to compare Baer to Lomachenko, when Baer and Fury were far more apt.

https://streamable.com/5ntd0

https://media.giphy.com/media/C2qwrIBDQ9EgE/giphy.gif

Your own observations of Baer's skills are obviously operating in a realm far divorced from reality.

They might do. I doubt they'd swing the fight though.

Not sure what I'm swerving exactly. Did Stander stop Frazier?

 

Frazier never quit on his stool. Futch stopped it because Joe's good right eye was closed and he had been fighting literally blind for two rounds. Joe protested the stoppage and never quit. Where are you getting this stuff from? Calling Joe a quitter, that's just not right. As a Frazier fan, I may not favor him against Baer, but I would never call the man a quitter. That's garbage. Get your facts straight.

Are you sure, because you just claimed Ali beat the dog out of him? And we are back to this again, this romanticized version of Foreman vs Frazier, twisting this prolonged beating of a helpless man into a demonstration of recuperative powers that only precise finishing could have held back. This is the reality:

https://streamable.com/onyef

https://streamable.com/lbbfz

https://streamable.com/un3iz

https://streamable.com/5fe8n

Frazier was done after KD 2. It doesn't matter if he kept getting up, he was visibly not fit to fight but given the benefit of the doubt because he was the Champ.

Just because Foreman was the only person that stopped Frazier, doesn't mean he's only one that could. Given Frazier only fought one real knockout artist, while Bonavena and Stander just had good punches. You are trying to lump Baer in with Stander and Bonavena, when in reality he's closer to Foreman in ability to hurt and put away opponents at the world class level.

No. Post #78: You list it as a specific reason as to why you feel Baer is a sloppy finisher.

After listing it as a specific reason for why you called Baer a sloppy finisher, now you lecture me on it as a tool of lots of high class operators.

You can criticize Baer for being unorthodox and imagine other things working in your mind, or you could analyze what actually happened and why it worked. Baer was the most efficient finisher of his era and rates well historically, perhaps his unorthodox guard breaking tricks shouldn't be so snobbishly written off because you can imagine more "skillful" operators doing better.

Sure, show me clips of a Baer fight ending like this:

https://media.giphy.com/media/UOl0gWzZFnlUA/source.gif

This is a damn disgrace.

They are power punches in the 10th round of an active Heavyweight fight, speed is not what I expect from them.

I'm not the one that said right hands missing by a mile on film landed precisely.

His footwork is observable all right, he's got cement shoes and couldn't evade Ruiz.

Yes, Baer's punches were slow in that clip. Unlike you, I have no problem acknowledging what is on film. But once more, he's digging into a hurt opponent in the 10th round of what had been a busy fight. Breazele is a round 5 haymaker that you originally attempted to contrast to Baer's early haymakers..which didn't bold so well.

Your argument against Baer's speed has been limited to that clip, while simultaneously ignoring his fast hands in the other clips. If you want the whole picture you have to consider everything. Just because Baer is slow in one clip, doesn't mean he's not explosive or fast in another. As you said but rarely practice, it's about context.

It doesn't matter, all three men are doing the same thing. I used Lomachenko to successfully illustrate the point that Baer wasn't being sloppy or "bad", he was being crafty. And Lomachenko also uses unorthodox guard breaking, not quite back hands, but glove swipes and misdirections which Max also used.

How so? When have I produced a clip that doesn't show exactly what I said it does.

You said Fraizer would swerve the right all night long, yet here he is walking right into a right hand from the Butcher. No, Stander didn't stop Frazier, he was a slow unrated regional fighter with a big right hand, some durability, and little else. He still gave Frazier a scare.

 

Argument by giff is run awry and ultimately can be extremely misleading... Fighters need to be looked at in context of the fight, with the round noted, with the quality of opponent, their particular strategy for the opponent and the place on their career arc... some many variables. A fighter needs to be looked at and commented on in regards to an entire fight. Snippets here and there lack all gravity and context.

Like this example... here is a giff I did for a racewalking board I comment on, just ignore wthe some dullard punching a speed bag in front of them.

https://streamable.com/9rhko

 

What is misleading about the clips within the context of my posts and points? I doubt you can respond.

No, that so called example doesn't work. You would have to explain how I misrepresented Wlad and Bear's speed bag work out, not imaginary hyperbole that proves nothing.

Its Ovah argued speed bag work outs are misleading because Wach looks decent on one, the clip was to show in contrast to Wlad and Baer, he really doesn't look decent, he looks out of his league. So what is misleading? You want to take up the case for Wach's grandpa bag work?

 

It's the ESPNification of the sport. If that is the level you want to understand it on, go ahead.

These fights were full 12 or 15 round affairs with narratives, tendencies and strategies that were far more important than moments of technique. For a most recent example, I could make a giffs of Floyd against McG taken from the first 3 rounds where he would seem sloppy and shot and immobile and one-dimensional. But played against the larger narrative of the fight, we know what he was accomplishing in sucking the air out of his opponent and that he was actually in full and masterful control.

Also, the relief upon which these snippets are cast, namely the opponents, are crucial to their understanding. There are some opponents with whom you can get away with slop or laziness or showboating... There are others where you game needs to be airtight. One might argue that the amazing shots a Baer lands on an oaf like Carnera might not be replicated against a more fleet, nimble opponent (or one who hadn't already seen the canvas) who had some head movement. One might just argue that.

In regards to the bagwork vid, please to note the movements of the folks in the background. Had the latest shipment of Bolivian Blue Flake just arrived?

 

Like I said, "I doubt you can respond."

How about you try to make a case against my use of the clips.

If you are going to criticize the clip of Baer/Carnera, you should be able to actually address how the clip was used. It shouldn't be that hard, right? If I misrepresented it.

This was how it was used:

It's Ovah: "(Baer had) decided lack of explosiveness "
Me: "he could be explosive" *clip of Baer's right hand on Carnera*

What is the misrepresentation?

 

Then add to the narrative.

You may be a bit paranoid about peoples intentions using gifs.
They are used to create easily viewable moments of a fight.

Everything can be embellished, including your words.
Are we going to lament all day about it, or are we going to make the best of what we got?