Jack Dempsey vs rocky Marciano

Okay, but the actor I quoted said he could get a good meal for two bits. Does a good meal always have to be a steak dinner. Why not chicken? or fish? Or no meat at all. I rarely eat meat more than once a day.

 

Do you by any chance have a source for the quote other than your word? Maybe he was exaggerating.

Boxers in Dempsey's time ate steak, potatoes, milk, eggs, bacon, etc. basic foods that are typical on say a farm. Don't forget that this is 100 years ago we're talking. Foods that weren't local were pretty rare to come by and in turn more expensive.

A good meal just has to be at least enough to fill the void. A doughnut for example, does not count as a good lunch for a professional boxer.

 

The only thing I am saying is that all this was in August or so of 1916. It is not the time of the Flynn fight. Dempsey was a sparring partner here. For the Flynn fight he was the main attraction for a $5000 gate.

As for the quote from the actor. Check the biography of Bud Osborne at the IMDB and his personal quotes. I have no idea if he was exaggerating, but I don't see a motive for it.

 

Just to clear things up, Dempsey was only in the Morris camp for 4 days. I probably should have mentioned that sooner. After that he was unemployed. To make ends meet, he says he borrowed money from a guy in a pool hall. Probably a loan shark. As I previously mentioned, he went to donate blood to the red cross but was denied because he looked too malnourished. After that, he says he fought some local boys in Salt Lake City and that his money was constantly running out. On top of that he met back up with Maxine and she proceeded to take his money according to Dempsey. This is all on pg. 53-54 of his autobio just so you know I'm not making it up.

Dempsey wasn't reason the Flynn fight drew such a big crowd, Flynn was the draw. Dempsey is quoted as saying "The fight was held in Murray, Utah where several hundred fans rooted themselves hoarse for Flynn." (Dempsey pg. 55)

Dempsey was practically an unknown until 1918 when he started knocking out the contenders and had hooked up with Kearns.

 

"Dempsey was practically an unknown"

He was a well-known regional fighter.

I have a question about his autobiography. Does he mention A. J. Auerbach. Auerbach was a Salt Lake City businessman who was for a while, including at he time of the Flynn fight, Dempsey's manager.

What interests me about Auerbach is an article in the New York Times from July 7, 1919.

It is an article about Jack Dempsey squaring his account with Auerbach, "who took an interest in Jack four years ago and helped him financially to get his start in his pugilistic career. Dempsey handed over to his benefactor $6,126.20, the giant killer's original debt plus interest."

That is quite a bit of money for that time. There is interest, but this would seem to come out to $3 to $4 a day, not an insignificant amount in those days. So Dempsey had someone he was borrowing money from. Does he mention that?

There was a series of articles in the Arizona Republican from May 23 to May 30, 1921 about Dempsey's early career written by Hal Cochran. Cochran lists a couple of purses for Dempsey fights--
$325 April 8, 1916---Joe Bonds
$350 May 3, 1916---Terry Kellar
I don't know how accurate this is, but with 2000 fans present, according to box rec, the Kellar purse seems reasonable.

I don't know what the truth is, if it can even be found out today, but I think there are issues.

*again on Auerbach. How reasonable is it that with Auerbach his manager at the time of the Flynn fight and with Dempsey ending up paying him over $6000 to square accounts, that Auerbach wouldn't have fed him while he was training for Flynn?

 

Maybe it boils down to do you think Dempsey was lying ? You certainly don't appear to have much regard for him ,saying he pimped his wife ,so perhaps you think he was a liar too?

 

What does this have to do with Auerbach? If the New York Times story is correct, what are the implications.

The question is not a moralistic one of calling him a "liar." It boils down to whether Dempsey is a reliable source about Dempsey.

Take the Flynn fight whatever one thinks of his status at the time. Here is Dempsey in his 1960 autobiography--

"In the first minute of the fight he hit me with a right that put me on the deck. I came up groggy and he was waiting there over me, and down I went again when he hit me. I got up and this time I was able to hold. But only for a few seconds. He knew how to get out of a clutch like that. He broke away, stepped back, threw a punch, and I was flat on my back a third time. When I got up I couldn't see him. He was behind me. I turned like a drunk, I guess, and he let me have it while my eyes were trying to find him. I went down again.
As I got up to face Flynn, my brother Bernie, working in my corner, threw in the towel. When the fog went away, I cussed him, my own brother. 'Why? Why? Why?' I kept yelling at him. Bernie was a pro. He was right. He didn't stop it because I was his brother. He stopped it because I was having my brains beaten out."

Later in 1971 Nat Fleischer quotes Dempsey on the fight--

"My brother was taking care of me again, and as is usual in such cases, he thought I was badly hurt, got scared, and tossed the towel into the ring. That's the true story. I could have continued if he had not interfered."

Is Fleischer accurately quoting Dempsey? Now it has become an unnecessary stoppage.

Of course, the wire report and all the ringside reporters said Dempsey went down and was counted out in about 20 seconds. Nothing like this elaborate story.

Note that Sullivan was counted out once. Johnson was counted out. Louis was counted out. So was Dempsey. But in his version he is not. A spin which not only put this fight in a better light but also put Dempsey in a better light in comparison to these other champions.

 

I don't think he mentions A.J. Auerbach. However Dempsey really only talks about Kearns and Joe the Barber as far as managers goes. There never really seems to be a point to address it either. The chapter of the Flynn fight succeeds the chapter about New York and all that. The 8 page chapter goes: Joe the Barber tarnishing his name >>>riding the rods to KC and becoming a sparring partner for Morris >>> short story about Morris >>> money problems >>> marital problems with Maxine Cates >>> asked to fight Flynn/Flynn fight >>> more marital/money problems >>> Al Norton fight >>> split with Fred Winsor as manager.

It seems that whatever role AJ played it was brief and informal. Fred seems to be the main man. Also boxrec doesn't list Auerbach as a manger nor have I heard the name until now I must admit.

I'd also like to note Dempsey's tone in this chapter. His confidence in himself seems to be incredibly low, I can't help but feel sorry for him as I read the book. He seems to be Jack Dempsey who happened to box rather than the boxer who happened to be named Jack Dempsey that we all know.

 

"it seems that whatever role AJ played it was brief and informal."

for $6,126.20? Whether informal or not, that seems like a lot of money for that time.

I will re-check, but I believe it was the local newspaper which said Auerbach was his manager. Winsor was the promoter of the fight, and later was Dempsey's manager for a while.

Thanks for your comment on his autobiography. Which one is it by the way? What is the copyright date?

 

It's called "Dempsey" by Jack Dempsey and Barbara Piatelli. Copyright 1977.

This is the one
[url]https://www.amazon.com/Dempsey-Jack/dp/0060110546/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8[/url]

 

Oh we can't have that can we!

 

Dagowop

Fun exchanging views with you. Whatever else, going off like this I tend to learn things about eras in the distant past, like living expenses.

I want to recommend googling "Ringside reports on the Jack Dempsey-Jim Flynn fight" which produced for me this discussion

"Flynn KO's Dempsey--Ringside Report/Boxing News Forum"

which has excerpts from several ringside newspaper reports on the fight. Besides the fight reports themselves, there is an interesting quote from a trainer who had worked with both men in the preview of the fight,

"Young Peter Jackson, a good judge of boxing, who has trained both men, predicts a great battle and advises Flynn not to take Dempsey too lightly. Although he worked with Flynn for this go, he likes Dempsey's chances and says a great deal will depend on how good Flynn is today and how much punishment Dempsey can stand and combat against."

 

Thank you.

 

I kind of doubt that figure. That sum in 2017 dollars equates to about $145,000. Allot of money to loan to a relatively unknown fighter who had no means to pay it back. Perhaps the reference was that sum in today's dollars rather than the actual sum loaned.

 

So the $6126 in 2017 dollars would be around $260 in 1916. Possibly a more reasonable figure.