Andre Ward at SMW.

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

MAJR said: ↑

Lets look dispassionately at his achievements in the division.

WBA (Super) Champion, WBC Champion, The Ring Champion, winner of the Super Six, undefeated, 6 successful defences

It's an impressive list and certainly justifies him as a top ten in the division's history, but where? This leads to comparison with other fighters who could be in top ten, and they are, or could be:

Calzaghe - WBO, WBC, WBA (Super), IBF and the Ring Champion, undefeated, 21 successful defences
Eubank - WBO Champion, 14 successful defences
Benn - WBC Champion, 9 successful defences
Kessler - WBA (Regular), WBA (Super) and WBC Champion, 6 successful defences
Froch - WBA (Regular), WBC and IBF Champion, 7 successful defences
Jones - IBF Champion, undefeated, 5 successful defences
Liles - WBA champion, 7 successful defences
Park - IBF and WBA Champion, 9 successful defences
Toney - IBF Champion, 3 successful defences
Collins - WBO Champion, undefeated, 7 successful defences
Ottke - WBA (Super) and IBF Champion, undefeated 21 successful defences.

It's clear in terms of accomplishments he cannot be rated above Calzaghe - Calzaghe simply did more than him in the division - but there's no one else who legitimately can claim to have achieved more than him at Super Middleweight, and only Ottke could be in with a shout of challenging him.

So, whether we like or not, a top three in terms of only accomplishments must read:

1 - Calzaghe
2 - Ward
3 - Ottke

Then you move onto ability and where you rate them in terms of their talent and effectiveness as fighter. This is a harder one to judge because it's drawn more from personal opinions than anything else, and other than a real life results against fighters from the same era there's no much solid behind the reasoning. We can only difinitively rate him above people he beat in real life but when it comes to hypothetical match ups against fighters 20 years older than him long since retired it becomes far less clear. Perhaps we have to rely on the popular opinion of boxing for this but is that without dispute?

For what it's worth, this would be my top three in terms of ability:

1 - Jones
2 - Calzaghe
3 - Ward

I have Calzaghe over Ward because I prefer his high-output pressure punching style over Ward spoiling style - though both are not without their flaws and certainly warrent legitimate criticisms.

Overall then I would say Ward must be rated second only to Calzaghe as the divisions greatest ever fighter.
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I think you have made an attempt to do a factual approach to what I feel is an honest opinion off someone, even if I dont completely agree.

When you say accomplishments at SMW you dont note how Eubank with his defences beat the relinquished undefeated IBF SMW champ had beaten the WBC SMW champ who he fought to a draw and beat several decent SMWs. I would struggle to really see when looking at overall opposition how you could rate Ward above him. Consider Collins beat undefeated Eubank, did it again and twice beat Benn as well as Sellier, so couldnt rate Wards resume above that one either

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Ilikeboxing said: ↑

I think Joe outworks him.
RJJ would be too flash for him to get up close. A lot of Roy's KO's come when people attempted the clinch.
Prime Eubank
Prime Toney
Collins
Benn
Would prime Kessler beat him? 50/50 Ward is at this level.
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I think it could be 50/50 with prime Kessler. Prime Kessler had good footwork and a decent jab and we saw how Ward struggled with a jab by Kovalev. Kessler looked faster with great combinations back then and good footwork

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Loudon said: ↑

But what's the criteria though?

Roy Jones only fought at SMW for 2 years, but he's the best SMW there's ever been.

In terms of accomplishments, it's obviously Joe Calzaghe.

Andre has to be on the top 5 along with those 2.
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How was Jones the best there has been? Lol at Loudons logic

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

like a boss said: ↑

Top 10 easily.
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Why easily with all of the other names? You know the history of the division right?

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Loudon said: ↑

Great post.

It's really hard to rank them.

Personally, I could never rank Ottke in the top 3.
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Bias?

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Loudon said: ↑

Benn would have been incredibly dangerous early, but he was more dangerous as a MW.

Personally, I'd have given him a 4 round window against Roy. After that, Roy would have broken him down.
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Benn was more dangerous at SMW, he had a better chin as a SMW, was boxing better then and grew to be stronger

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Nonito Smoak said: ↑

If you think he isn't in the top 5, well I could use a good laugh, so post those you rank ahead of him.
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Calzaghe
Eubank
Ottke
Collins
Benn

Odins beard · Sep 24, 2017

HerolGee said: ↑

number 1 SMW obviously but in terms of boxing history, SMW is still young so he might be ousted soon.

If we are being honest, we all knwo he'll be back soon enough. Retiring at 33 for good when they on such a crest isnt feasible, unless you are trying to avoid losses/avoid a fighter who would mash you.
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He's avoiding a murderers row at 175.

Much better than the flaccid 168 division he ruled.

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

Ward is just overrated because of the Super 6 World Classics, but there didn't participate any superstar and Wards abilities as boxer are not special, though them are good (similar as Crawford); there didn't take part two major world champions; Bute (who was in my view the best of the weight class when) and Stieglitz, while the competition over all in this division wasn't extraordinary strong or deep; this first tournament just gave it a hype (the current in Cruiserweight is a bit better actual) and he never faced any pound for pound top 10 boxer. Even washed up Dawson boxed him partly out with his superior speed. While he had very close bouts against the limited Bika and Abraham, where he had to go do or die and all were in his neighbourhood (with headbutting Kessler among others). To be honest, Allen Green and Edwin Rodriguez were far away from world class (they are rather second tier boxers) and them are a third of Wards defences. His reign just pretend to be greater than it is, because he was very inactive, so he got a longwide title-hold (as he regular boxed once all 14 months). Beyer on the other hand has two wins over knockout-machine Danny Green (who became world champion later), one vs. Lucas and destroyed Woodhall. Kessler has it against Mundine, Beyer, Andrade and Froch, mainly dominant.

He's skillwise just not at the same tier as Jones, Mayweather, Mosley or Hearns were. He accomplished less than a quarter of Mayweather and Jones, even less than Barrera. I think Hamed was more impressive than Ward.
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Beyer didnt destroy Woodhall lol. It was a close fight where Beyer had to hold to last

Odins beard · Sep 24, 2017

Top 5 at 168.

As for H2H I think the following fighters beat him or at least have a very good chance.

Calzaghe
RJJ
Toney
Eubank
Benn
Collins

Ward v Ottke would be an insomniac's dream.

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Brixton Bomber said: ↑

Bute was NOT the best. Froch proved that.
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Ward didnt. Just because Froch beat Bute doesnt mean Ward would have beaten that version

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Loudon said: ↑

I love debating with you.

You have great in-depth knowledge of the division.

It's great that we all share different opinions. But with the greatest respect to you, I couldn't disagree more with what you've written.

I think it's silly.

You can't just look at the numbers. You simply have to account for ability as well.

Roy only had about 6 fights at the weight, but he's high on your list just like he is on mine. So you must have rated Roy that high on his ability, as well as for his wins over Toney and Malinga. You must have done that, as opposed to just looking at his number of title defences etc.

Andre might not have a string of title defences and mandatories etc, but he's obviously one of the greatest SMW's of all time. He his simply a better fighter than Thulani Malinga. Also, in my honest opinion, he has better wins. Andre easily beat Carl Froch, despite having a double fracture of his hand. He also beat Kessler. Those wins are better than Malinga's wins over Reid and Benn. Benn was faded at that point. He was never the same after the McClellan fight. Which is why I don't give Steve Collins much credit for beating him.

What difference does it make if Froch wasn't a top 20 P4P fighter? Neither were Reid or Benn.

I would rank Andre ahead of Markus Beyer, on the grounds that I think he was just a better fighter.

I would rank Roy Jones higher than Sven Ottke, despite the fact that Roy only spent 2 years in the division. Roy was just on another level. Again, I respect what you've written, but when I compile a list, I simply have to take into account their H2H ability, even though it's highly subjective. Otherwise, you're going to end up eventually putting a guy like George Groves ahead of Roy and Andre, based on title defences etc. (if he went on to make a number of them)

Where you've mentioned Holmes, are you referring to Lindell Holmes? If so, how on earth can he rank ahead of Andre? How many fights did he have at SMW? Who did he beat?

Park? Mitchell?
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How was Benn never the same after the McClellen fight? He scored 2 stoppages after and a good one against Nardiello.
How was he faded going in against Malinga? He was a world champ on a run of 9 defences with his last 3 fights stoppage wins and his points win before that was a dominant win over a durable opponent

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

UniversalPart said: ↑

What the heck did Calzaghe do that people rank him so highly? Beat decades past peak Jones or Hopkins?

Peter Manfredo?

Sakio Bika?

Kessler?

Jeff Lacy?
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If you are writing that, you obviously dont know the division to comment but with that you surely cant find an argument to put Ward above at SMW

Brixton Bomber · Sep 24, 2017

bailey said: ↑

Ward didnt. Just because Froch beat Bute doesnt mean Ward would have beaten that version
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Ward would have clowned him.

bailey · Sep 24, 2017

Loudon said: ↑

No worries.

Without being argumentative, why can you see why Ra would pick those guys?

That implies that you agree with him.

If you don't, then question them. That's the point of the debate.
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Are you just looking for an argument? He explained himself

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