Andre Ward at SMW.

Collins with win over undefeated Eubank greater than Wards win over Kessler
Collins repeat win over Eubank greater than Wards win over Froch
Collins win over Benn greater than Wards win over Abraham
Collins repeat win over Benn greater than Wards win over Bika
Collins win over Sellier greater than Wards win over Miranda

Still sure thats a joke to you

Benn draw wins over McClellen, Wharton, Malinga, Nardiello, Galvano x 2,
Add the rest of the body at SMW and drawing with the then greatest SMW and you have it there

Your trolling doesnt look funny to me?

I said its debatable and yes could make arguments if I chose to

You are writing this because I wrote

Well right there. Malinga beat well established champ Benn when on a good run and beat undefeated SMW champ Reid on a good run. Arguably greater wins, Then take into account some fights were disputed as well as a few other names who may not have been top tier but decent and Malinga has a dispute even though I would likely rate Ward higher

 

No, same reason Ward will never travel.

They love everything in their favour.

 

Ra's Al-Ghul,

No problem. Again, you have great in-depth knowledge of the division like Bailey dies, and your English is great. I'm very impressed.

Yes, I have Roy as the greatest SMW of all time, but obviously only on a H2H basis. I have no issue with anyone ranking Calzaghe as their number 1, based on accomplishments.

Regarding Andre, I have him in the top 5, based on ability and resume.

Regarding Froch, yes he was a little basic. He wasn't the most gifted. But he beat some very good fighters with the attributes that he possessed. I think that with wins over: Kessler, Bute and Groves etc, he has to crack the top 20.

I was a fan of Reid's growing up, but I never thought that he was anything special. I would liked to have seen Froch fight an earlier version of him.

Comparing Benn and Kessler is very interesting, as their styles were so different. I think that Benn was better as a MW than a SMW.

I know that Andre never travelled like other fighters had to, but I don't think that has any bearing when ranking someone.

I'll be interested to see what Bailey's response is to this.

Lindell Holmes was a good boxer, but again, his resume doesn't stack up to Andre's.

I can't agree that Benn was a top 20 P4P fighter when he fought Malinga. His fight with Gerald took a lot out of him. That's why I don't give Collins much credit for his wins over him.

 

Ra's Al-Ghul,

I don't know anything about Park.

Did he beat top fighters?

Collins did beat greater names, but I think they were faded. So for me, Andre's win over Froch ranks higher than Collins' win over Benn.

I wouldn't say that Andre's competition was just average.

It's a shame we never saw Beyer vs Calzaghe.

Whilst I respect your opinion, I don't see how Beyer ranks higher than Andre.

 

kovalev was the best at 175, so everyone in the world stopped reading your post there, though many of them thought the next bit you wrote, about you -

 

bailey,

You rate wins on name value alone.

You don't take anything else into account, such as the manner of the victories, or any injuries going into the fights etc. You don't consider the circumstances. But worse than that, you'll note where fighters are faded when it suits, but then turn a blind eye when it doesn't. You're extremely biased, and you're a stat man. Most of your opinions are based on statistics.

Eubank was one of the greatest SMW's of all time. But when he fought Collins, he was faded. He wasn't the guy who'd beaten Watson and Benn, and his form was hit and miss. Again, he admitted he should have lost to Benn and Schommer, and many people had Close beating him. So by his own admission, he was very lucky to fight Collins with his zero intact. Now although I give huge credit to Collins for psyching him out, I don't see it as this great win. Also, it was a very close fight.

Carl Froch wasn't a great fighter. But he was very tough with the attributes that he possessed. Andre went into the final of the Super Six with an injured hand. Then after round 6, he knew he'd done serious damage. Yet despite his injury, he beat Carl with ease. (much easier than the official scores suggested) Therfore, in my honest opinion, beating a fighter like Froch with ease whilst being injured, is more of an achievement than scraping past Eubank in a close fight. Now if you don't agree, that's fine. But at least take these circumstances into account.

Again, if you think Froch and Kessler were faded/past their best when Andre fought them, then that's fine by me. I have no issue with that. But if you're going to be objective, you simply have to note that Benn and Eubank were also faded/past their best when Collins fought them. Again, you cannot dismiss Andre's win over Froch on the grounds that he was faded, whilst at the same time, claiming that Collins had a great win over Benn. It's absolutely ridiculous. The fact that you won't even admit that Benn was faded against Collins is pathetic. Benn himself said: "I knew I was kinda gone against Steve" How often does a fighter admit to something like that?

It's a good resume. But I don't see how it's better than a resume which consists of: Abraham, Kessler, Bika, Froch and Dawson etc.

You could make an argument over anything. But a guy like Holmes does not have a better resume than Andre.

No, he doesn't. Malinga's resume doesn't hold up to Andre's. Here you are again: Hyping the wins of one guy, whilst dismissing the wins of the other.

Again, Benn was faded, and Reid was no better than Froch.

There is no dispute.

 

The consensus best yes but there are fighters out there who on any given day could beat him.

175 is way more dangerous than 168 was....Beterbiev, Gvozdyk, Bivol, Chickenson...Jack has moved up....way better and more deadly.

However it seems Ward isn't willing to travel to Canada for the money, obviously because he's a huge draw in Oakland and it seems he has no intention in fighting g the other killers at 175....hence him seeking out Callum Johnson.

Ward is an excellent fighter, HOF worthy no doubt but he could put an exclamation mark on his career if he beat a Beterbiev....a Gvozdyk.....unified against the piece of **** Chickenson, I mean how many times does he have to beg to fight Ward?

That ok for you HerolBates?

 

I respect this opinion, and I hope we haven't seen the last of Andre. But Joe would never have fought those guys either.

He would never have fought Kovalev.

He wouldn't even leave SMW when Ottke wouldn't unify with him.

 

There's no saying he would or wouldn't.

But for the record I do like Calzaghe in that fight, although I think he hits the canvas early.

 

There is.

We know what he said throughout the years.

We know who he fought and at what point.

For the record, I think Joe could have beaten Kovalev. But I know he would never have fought him. How I do I know? Because of the following:


He wouldn't move up to LHW in the early 00's, even when he couldn't fight Ottke, and there was nothing else on the horizon for him at the time.

He wouldn't fight Tarver, saying that he didn't rate him and he didn't warrant a fight.

He wouldn't fight Pavlik.

He wouldn't fight Dawson.

He was more than content to fight guys like Mkrtchyan even in his 30's.


You have to give Andre huge credit for going up and fighting Kovalev twice. Again, it's something that Joe would never have done. He would never have risked his zero in a fight of that magnitude.

 

Calzaghe was at the tail end of his career when Dawson was champion and let's be honest wasn't a name fighter to warrant him not retiring.

Pavlik? Who said he wouldn't fight him? Again for the record I wish the fight would have been made as Pavlik is Lacey mark 2....JC wouldn't have lost a second of the fight.

I rate Ward, he's a good fighter but he lost the first Kovalev fight and whilst he won the second he was being outboxed....you seem to forget that Calzaghe tried to make the fight with Hopkins only for Hopkins to agree and then renegade early on in their careers.

Calzaghe's career is as underated as Ward's is or gets overated.

 

Joe would never have fought a guy like Dawson at any point in his career.

When Joe didn't want to fight someone, it was always the same default response:

"They don't excite me/they haven't impressed me, they've done nothing to warrant a fight"


Dawson had beaten: Harding, Adamek, Johnson and Tarver.

He called Joe out. Joe wasn't interested. He instead wanted to fight Roy for an easier pay day, despite the fact that he'd previously said that a fight was pointless, as Roy had been shot since 2004.


Pavlik also wanted to fight Joe. And I agree with what you said. Because in my honest opinion, I think he'd have beaten him easier than Bernard did. So yes, I think it would have been: "Lacy Mark 2" so it's a shame we never saw it. Also, he'd have earnt more money than what he earnt against Roy, and he'd have gotten a lot more recognition. But he wasn't interested. And in a media interview, he gave a bizarre statement:

"Pavlik has done nothing to warrant a fight with me, and we tried to fight him straight after I'd beaten Lacy, but he wasn't interested"

How did that make sense?

In 2008, Pavlik was big news. He'd just knocked out Jermain Taylor and he was extremely popular.

In 2006, he was an unknown NABF champ.

If he hadn't done enough to warrant a fight with him in 2008, then why did he try and fight him in 2006 when he'd obviously done even less?

This is why Joe annoyed me so much over the years.


Yes, Joe did try and make the fight with Bernard earlier. But he would never have moved up to LHW and fought a guy like Kovalev. It's just a fantasy to suggest otherwise.

 

so you admit he was the best, end of.

 

Not what I said is it.

Get back to the basement you jobless tit.

 

given the evidence of calling out namesn and not being interested in reality, i think its safe to say joe was just using benrards name to big himself up, and had no real interest in the fight.