Sonny Liston, head to head GOAT

You lack historical understanding. That's ok you are young and very inexperienced. Heck you were born after the Ali era! Talk about being lost!

The worlds hwt championship was always given a higher priority and held to a higher standard. Why? The holder of this title was considered the physical master of all men. The holder of this title was considered someone very special

 

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Bottom line however the reason why those do not rate Liston as an ATG and I am one of them is in fact he gave up the greatest prize in all of sport sitting on his stool. Cannot rate a man who gave up as Liston did his championship along with those who fought life and death to keep it.

Watch how Liston throws his jab over and over just a minute or so before he quit saying his left shoulder was grossly injured.

 

Liston was way past prime when he fought Ali. Whether he gave up on his stool, or the mob connections carried into the ring, or whatever... Don't forget Duran gave up too.

 

Liston was certainly a force though I can`t say he would be the best H2H. I would favor Joe Louis to beat him. Ali and Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson and probably Holyfield.

 

I think quitting in a championship fight is definitely a far bigger blemish on a fighter than quitting in a non-title fight.
But the weight class is irrelevant.

 

Such a difficult question. The mental state. I'd put him at number 6, although I feel he probably could have been top 3. (Much in the same way I have Tyson at 9, although I feel he probably could have been top 5).

 

Exactly!!! He QUIT while sitting on his stool ...AS CHAMPION...against Ali in 1964...and we all know what happened up in Maine in May 1965!!!

 

Douglas was great?...Ahhh,....no! He caught lighting in a bottle that one night in 1990!!!

 

Sonny Liston looks great on film. He really does. What's not to like? I love that jab. His distance and punch selection. Enough power in both hands to match anyone.

If we are to look for a fighter with all the right amount of tools to be a H2H master it would have to be something that looked close to Liston. I say "looked like" being close to him rather than being "actual Liston" though. It would be a guy who looked that good against better guys. Who was mentally tough winning great fights.

Why do I say that? Why should I exclude Sonny Well, to be a great fighter, a truly great fighter the first maxim of greatness must first be met. Great fighters win great fights. Sonny never did this.

The eye test is all well and good when everything is going your way. When you have size, career timing and confidence over the victim every one looks great. But it's about beating the guys who fight back too.

If We never heard from Joe Louis after the Schmeling loss it would be same thing or almost the same thing as How I rate Sonny, but seeing as Louis already beat guys like Baer, Sharkey and Carnera even that's not so bad.

But Joe got off the floor to beat Buddy Baer. He beat guys bigger than he was. He came from behind to beat Conn. he destroyed Lou Nova. He rematches guys that took him close to beat them beyond dispute. As well as a lot of guys who on paper should have presented a fair even chance. And joe Louis did this all whilst looking like Joe Louis.

Sonny never did that. Neither did Ike Ibeabuchi or whom ever looked like a million dollars wiping th floor with guys who were not real champions, on top of their game or regarded as an even match going into their fight.

I have heard it all, how he was older than he looked, that his reign would have been longer if he got a shot earlier (ridiculous because Ingo was always rated higher), that he was forced to take dives, Even that Cleveland Williams was better than he was, Nothing was Sonnys fault. He deserves a pass.

Well if that is so, why not just say it was because Liston was old or because Sonny was forced to take dives he did not realise his true worth. Why not say That Sonny didn't qualify for this stature? Why not say "we can't say because" rather than "if it wasn't for this he would have"? nobody gets a pass among the top ten. Why should they? Not when all the guys in the top ten did more against better men than Sonny did.

So Let Sonny remain an interesting champ with a lot of talent.

 

He's definitely up there. I'd only favor Ali over him if we're talking one fight. If we're talking about a trilogy I believe Louis joins that list as well.

 

This is really funny btw

 

Lewis, Holmes, Vitali, Ali, Wlad, Tyson, meet Liston.

So long, Sonny.