Floyd Patterson, Enigma

I agree 100 percent. I just cant see how anyone can score for Ellis here. Was Ellis busier at times? Yes. BUT Patterson was always landing the more damaging punches throughout and that clearly offset what little advantage Ellis MIGHT have had in volume. I also believe that the refusal to score a knockdown showed a clear bias on Valan's part. This fight, for me, is very similar to Patterson's bout with Maxim. In that fight Patterson was, at times, passive while Maxim was pecking and poking away. But invariably, after Maxim would go for a period with his jab and grab style to score cheap points and steal moments of a round Patterson would come back with something big, wobble Maxim, and then go on the attack. In pro boxing this used to, and should, offset pitty pat volume punching. Maxim did a great job of using his octopus style to confuse the young Patterson and minimize his effectiveness but Patterson was the aggressor, landed the far harder punches, and was never really bothered by anything Maxim did. I don't see how you can score that fight for Maxim. I wont call either a robbery because I concede that both guys made the fight close when Patterson laid back but I still think they are clear wins for Patterson.

 

Floyd did not fight pathetic opposition for five years though. I have already specified why there was nothing wrong with Floyds opposition. Patterson was a legit #1 LH contender in his own right who beat the #2 HW contender to challenge for the vacant title against the #1 HW contender.

As champion Floyd defended against the #1 contender, #3 and #4. Ingo was another #1 HW contender (his third fight against a #1) the first time and champion the second time. What's pathetic?

Radmacher was a "two fight one camp" deal. Floyd simply stated in camp for an extra fight. A bonus fight that never should have counted as a defence just weeks after facing the #1 contender.

Before facing Liston Floyd beat #1 ingo a second timeas part of a rematch clause. The fourth time Floyd met the #1 HW.

In reality Sonny was always behind ingo in the ratings. Where is this pathetic opposition???

 

Choklab has done an excellent summary of the timeline of Patterson's
title fights. You can verify the rankings of the boxers themselves, if you care. London got his shot, as a warm up for Floyd's defense the following month against No I, Johansson. Cooper had been offered it, but wanted too
much, added to the fact that cuts sustained in his points win over Brian, had not healed. Ali, off course defended against the same Brian London, 7 years later in August 1966, while Floyd knocked out Cooper a month later.

 

But who else was Floyd going to fight? Machen and Foley as #1 and #2 blew an elimination fight. They drew. The fans did not care that neither Foley or Machen got a shot ahead of #3 Harris because nobody still knew who was better between the three of them. Harris became logical.

Radmacher was a bonus fight that came weeks after #1 Jackson was disposed of. The deal was Floyd stay in camp after that fight and take it as an extra bout. It was take that fight or wait till next summertime.

London was a warm up for Ingo. He was in the top ten and eligible. There is nothing wrong with a champion signing to meet his #1 contender then fixing himself a warm up with a rated contender just before he meets the better challenger. Who else was he going to fight, Cooper?

When Floyd met Mcneeley, Liston fought Whestphal in a double header on the same card. They had already agreed to fight! Westphal and mcneeley were warm ups for both men. Floyd had just disposed of his #1 contender, former champion Ingo. Floyd honoured his rematch clause.

 

I like this. Patterson hit hard, was fun to watch and had great speed, but he really had a light heavyweight type of durability/chin.

I wonder what he would have accomplished from the 1910-1950 timeline. In the past guys his size or smaller defeated past champions like Jim Corbett, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, and Joe Louis...so there is no reason Patterson could not have success

 

You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how obtuse it may be.

 

This is coming from a pinhead who has had this situation explained to him umpteen times but continues to harp on it without fully grasping the context. I cant wait until you rehash your brilliant thread questioning whether Jack Johnson was in danger of losing to Flynn in 1912. You see Im not miserable I just dont suffer fools lightly and youve proven over and over to have your head so far up your ass that you are the very definition of an insufferable fool. Im not going to spell out the timeline for you because its been done to death but a quick search of this forum will turn up my detailed response to the same clueless assertions you make here and exactly why those decisions were not only made but totally excusible and understandable. Nothing some dumbass clown who has done nothing more than look at boxrec and claim to have researched this era as best he could is going to change what actually happened, not what you imagine happened or what you want others to believe happened. The fact that you can claim he fought **** fighters for five years with a straight face and was protected shows how ****ing stupid you are. Go back to school on the subject and when you grow a pair of opposable thumbs and can string an intelligent, well researched argument together that supports your point get back to me. Until then you are out of your depth.

 

How can Facing the worlds #1 contender four times in five years be five years of crap?

 

Facts are like Kryptonite to Boxrec warriors with an agenda, or small minded little men who cant admit when their wrong:

NBA Ratings when Patterson fought:

Oct 1956
Vacant
1. Moore
2. Patterson

Patterson beat Moore the next month. Before he did D'Amato was accused of moving him too fast.

Floyd was named boxer of the year
Floyd was nominated for Athlete of the year

June 1957
Patterson
1. Hurricane Jackson

Patterson defended against Jackson the next month.

In 1958 Patterson awaited the winner of Folley-Machen which would decide the logical contender for his title (a requirement they both requested btw). The two fought a tepid draw in April in which they were booed throughout and heavily criticized. Most ringside observers felt Folley won so had Patterson fought his #1, Machen, Folleys supporters would have cried foul. Had Patterson defended against Folley, Machen would have cried foul based on his #1 rating. This was all moot because A rematch was expected. Further complicating their case was that both Folley and Machen had managers who were mob fronts and D'Amato refused to do business with them. In the meantime Patterson couldnt wait for the two to negotiate terms because a champion had to defend his title once a year and August, the anniversary of his fight with Rademacher was approaching so he signed to defend against #3 rated Roy Harris, undefeated and coming off a string of impressive wins and who had just been featured in several trade publications.

June 1958
Patterson
1. Machen
2. Folley
3. Harris

Patterson beat Harris the next month.

One month after Patterson beat Harris Machen took on Johannson and was obliterated in one round.

Johannson is named fighter of the year.

Johannson became the #1 contender off of this win.

One month after that Folley lost to Henry Cooper.

In January of 1959 the ratings were
Patterson
1. Johannson
2. London
3. Valdez
4. Folley
5. Pastrano
6. Machen
7. Cooper
8. Harris

That month Cooper defeated London and moved from 7th to 3rd in the ratings. Valdez was moved from 3rd to 2nd. Johannson stayed at #1. Cooper made it immediately known that he would demand $140,000 to face Patterson. The highest purse any Patterson opponent would have made to date. Effectively he priced himself out of the fight.

Three months later Patterson fought Brian London as a tuneup for his #1 challenger Ingemar Johannson who he was already signed to fight.
Patterson fought Johannson in June of 59. The same guy who obliterated Machen, the guy that Patterson critics say Patterson ducked. So yeah, Patterson supposedly ducked a defensive minded counterpuncher often criticized as boring and was cherry picking by fighting the guy who gave Machen a near life threatening beating. A guy who had one of the most powerful right hands in history.

Patterson lost and had an immediate rematch contract.

Johannson is named fighter of the year.

Johannson had one year to defend and waited until six days before his one year anniversary. Patterson won the fight with a knockout that is still considered one of the most devestating ever landed on an opponent.

The fight is named fight of the year.
Patterson is named fighter of the year.

Because of nature of the first two fights a rubber match was demanded and delivered 9 months later.

In the rubber match Patterson won again to cap one of boxings great rivalrys. At the time Johannson was rated #3. Liston was rated #1 and 3 months later would be dropped from the ratings after a serious arrest which led many to feel he wasnt the reformed convict his friends had been touting.

After the wars with Johannson Patterson understandably took a gimme against McNeeley who was rated #10. Liston had been dropped from the ratings due to his arrest for chasing down a woman in a park, pulling her over, impersonating a police officer and trying to get her to come with him. When a security guard luckily happened upon the scene, likely saving the girl, Liston and his friend fled at high speed. He was caught and arrested. Regardless, like Machen and Folley Liston was wholly owned by the mob until 1961.

Liston was not instilled back into the ratings until later that year. By that time Patterson had already been signed to fight McNeeley for two months.

That same year whether in truth or just for show Liston moved away from his mob front management. Also helping free up Patterson was the fact that two seperate investigations into racketeering in the past couple of years had gone a very long way toward stamping out the influence of men like Carbo, Palermo, and even Jim Norris which had created a strangle hold on almost all aspects of the sport for the past decade+. Within a couple of months of defeating McNeeley Patterson was already in negotiotions to defend against Liston despite being begged by politicians, civic organizations, and the like NOT to face Liston on grounds of Liston's disreputable character. Patterson, believing all men deserve a second chance, gave Liston the shot.

When Patterson lost he exercised his right to an immediate rematch and lost again. Regardless of those losses Patterson was so convinced that he could he could at least turn in a better performance than the previous two that he chased a rematch with Liston until Liston's death.

So the idea that Patterson went five years fighting nobody is ridiculous.

In reality in five years he fought 4 number one contenders, two number 3 contenders, a number 7 contender, a number 10 contender, and an unranked Olympic champion who did such a bang up job promoting the fight that Patterson was paid a purse more than twice as large as the largest purse he had made to date. He would have been a fool to turn down that fight, which BTW came less than one month after he had defended his title against his #1 contender.

And for the record these are the NBA rankings. Not the Ring ratings which werent official.

Context is everything and simply bleating on about Cus D'Amato supposedly being a bad guy and manipulating Patterson into some coddled overprotected champion simply doesn't jive with the facts.

 

What a great summary. This breakdown needs repeating more often. As you say the facts are there, and always have been, but somehow boxing folklore has incorrectly made it to "established opinion". It proves a good story (that of a protected Patterson) gets in the way of the truth.

Patterson gets a bad rap.