Sonny Liston, head to head GOAT

This really is bullsh*t.

 

I have the January 1956 Ring Magazine that has European champion Franco Cavicchi rated at #10 in the top ten, a place that Ingemar Johansson occupied come October of that year after he beat Franco. From the December 1956 edition of Ring Magazine Ingo was a constant Ring Magazine top ten fighter. His win over Henry Cooper put ingo up to #7 on the top ten list. Erskine had the Empire title when he challenged ingo for the European title. After losing to ingo, Brian London moved to Ring Magazine #8 when he beat Erskine. It is well known that Machen was #1 contender when Johansson knocked him out in September 1957.

In 1959 after his win over Willie Pastrano joe Erskine made the ring ratings whilst Ingo was champion. At the same time Patterson was the leading contender to Johansson.

Let's look at Sonny Listons resume as champion in comparison to Ingemars resume whilst the Swede was briefly champion.

1962 liston had wins over Patterson,folley and Williams (who by then had made it into the ratings). So Liston beat 2 of the top 5 and 3 of top 10

1959 ingo had Floyd, cooper and erskine who were all rated that year. So ingo beat 3 of top 5 and 4 of the top 10. all told ingo beat 8 men who made ratings.

European heavyweights of this era were a lot better than given credit for. Foley and Machen the best American non champions of the period actually went 1-3-1 against euro champs. only machen v mildendenburger was when either of them were going downhill. both at peak wen machen lost to ingo and folley to Cooper.

folley was still tops drawing wiv mildenburger and was in the middle of lomg run between terel and ali. Zara had just beat chuvalo and then go on to beat oscar bonavena, bob foster and clark!

bottom line in five fights wiv euro champs folley and machen managed one victory. u cant spin that into usa superiority.

 

Liston victim Mike deJohn was also ranked when Liston became champion.

Also, your method of ignoring Liston's victory over Machen doesn't work. Although he was dropped from the Ring ratings at the end of 1962 following his mental breakdown, he was still highly rated when Liston won the title and returned to the top 10 in 1963.

 

So is that a tacit admission that Erskine was not rated when he fought Ingo in58?

 

He was rated. How else did Brian London make #8 in the Ring Magazine top ten in 1958? London beat Erskine to get that ranking it was the last fight Brian had that could have made the ratings before January 1959 issue. And it was right after Joe lost to ingo and Brian lost to Pastrano in their first fight. Erskine was ranked.

 

Liston also beat DeJohn and Harris both ranked,and he beat Bethea in Aug 58,Bethea was ranked in Dec 57.
Ingo fought Erskine in 57,Erskine was not ranked then.

When was he ranked ?
Neither Tyson Fury or Mac Foster beat a ranked heavyweight to get rated!

I say he never entered the ratings until 1959! It is up to you to prove otherwise and you haven't!

 

Erskine wasn't ranked. As this report from just before the Johansson fight says, "Erskine has no ranking but Johansson is No.7 with the NBA and No.10 with Ring."

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vOscAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AWUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7283,3466138

 

No we are not ignoring either of Machen or Folleys victories against European champions. London was never a European champion. And the devastating KO win over Cooper was the one win either of them had over Euro champions that I did include.

I am not ignoring Listons win over Machen. Include it if you want. It still makes a comparable overview with Ingo as champion.

Machen was an excellent contender. He took Liston, Patterson and Frazier 10 rounds.

Against ingo just one round.

 

Ah, you caught me! I forgot London was never actually European champion and was too slow to correct myself.

Anyway, the correct figures for Liston when he became champion are 3 of the top 5 (including all the top 3) and 5 of the top 10.

 

You have to wonder what his stats would have looked like if he had gotten his title chance earlier?

 

He was never getting it any earlier. Sonny was always behind ingo in the ratings and he was incarcerated for some of the decade. The logical challenger was always the guy who had just lost the title and the rematch clause saw to that.

 

Like I said, it's comparable to ingo when he became champion. 3 of the top 5 and 4 of the top 10.

 

lol just a joke post. that website btw has some very funny gems

 

Yeah, I was critcizing the article not you!