Sonny Liston, head to head GOAT

He was behind in the ratings because neither Ingo or Floyd would go near him!
Johansson's best wins are ;
Patterson
Machen,[ whom he refused to rematch]
Cooper
Erskine
London,[just about!]
That's it!
Liston has;
Patterson
Williams
Machen
Folley
DeJohn
Harris
Bethea
Summerlin
King

 

I would add Clark to Sonnys list and dump King. King was not anybody.

You know I could easily pick apart the worth of all of Sonnys best victims (apart from Floyd, Machen, Harris and Foley) and it's somewhat embarrassing you include so many of the others that are not worth talking about. Outside of Floyd, Machen and Foley there really isn't anyone Micheal Spinks could not beat. Perhaps even Leon. Wayne Bethea? Howard King? Sumerlin? If the best wins those guys had are not worth talking about what is there to say about them as an opponent other than every other champion beat the same kinds of guys.

Ingo beat his share of fringe guys too, I could mention just as many of them as you have for Sonny...but that is precisely the point, there is very little between both ingo and Sonny once you get past Floyd Patterson.

An interesting factor about ingo is that in a short career he never fought one opponent with a losing record. Everyone of ingos fights were against men with more wins than losses with his two best knockout wins over top men who had never been knocked out before.

As champion there is little more to say about Sonny than there is to say about Ingo. And that must be why for so many many years most ATG top ten lists did not include either of them.

 

Harry Matthews was rated #6 at heavyweight by Ring Magazine in the August (to June 12) and September (to July 18) 1952 issues.

I have read that Matthews was rated #2 at heavyweight by the NBA when he fought Marciano but don't have those ratings at the tips of my fingers. I have the Ring ratings because I stumbled onto a few yearly bound volumes in a used book store decades ago and have saved them.

I am certain Cavicchi was rated several times in 1955 and 1956 and I could plow through the ratings to give you a month, but take my word for it, he did appear in the monthly ratings. Off his record and what he looks like on film, his making the top ten is very understandable.

Sept 1952 Ring Ratings

Champion--Jersey Joe Walcott
1--Rocky Marciano
2--Ezzard Charles
3--Roland LaStarza
4--Coley Wallace
5--Clarence Henry
6--Harry Matthews
7--Johnny Williams
8--Bob Dunlap
9--Rex Layne
10-Jimmy Bivins

 

Thanks Edward. Cavicchi is listed in my 1956 editions, I cannot locate my 1953 -55 copies right now and some years from my collection are not complete. However, I am certain that in Rock Of His Times (by Sullivan) Mathews high NBA ranking is verified during the run up to the Marciano fight.

I think it is legitimate that Sonny Liston beat no more current top ten guys on his way to the title than Rocky, Ali or Ingo.

 

I would say Sonny beats all but Dempsey convincingly, that would be a 50/50

 

The "Sonny as bully" argument is my favorite knee slapper. As tho all it required to beat the man was to spit in his eye.

Liston was a formidable package of athletic excellence and skill, and tore a hole through the division in quick fashion. In particular, I would favor him over the swarmer types of Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier. I think he has his most problems against Louis, Holmes and of course, Ali.

I would really like to see how would do against the modern dreadnoughts we all too often discuss.

 

Perhaps but what you have not considered is how much Ring Magazine campaigned to get Sonny a title fight and called for Floyd to meet him.

"Liston Deserves a Shot at heavyweight title" -nat Fleischer oct 1960

"Sonny Liston, the Philadelphia jawbreaker whose name has headlined the sports pages of the country following his knockout of Zora Foley in the third round in Denver, has only one more obstacle to hurdle to gain a match with champion Floyd Patterson. No heavyweight has done more to earn a heavyweight championship fight than Sonny. But contractual commitments, his association with individuals who have been banned from boxing and past record outside the ring, stand in his way."

"Since his ability is such that he is being touted as the best heavyweight in the field, there are those who have come forth with demands that he banned from taking part in a world heavyweight championship match. I disagre, vehemently!"



Sifting through my collection of magazines Looking for Cavicchis and Erskines monthly ratings I discovered in later editions (For such a hated guy) Ring Magazine certainly made quite a case for Sonny as the rightful outstanding challenger.

And not just Ring Magazine, my march 1962 edition of Boxing Illustrated featured "Does This Man Deserve a chance at the title!" wrote that they had been "Sonnys biggest booster" and had published five feature articles on Liston since 1958, "all praising his ability as a fighter and advocating his right to a shot at the title." The article made a case for why "only his ring record not his police record" should count using Jack Johnson and other examples for their case. Sonny was a red hot prospect.

 

I think we've already established that's not true because neither Cooper nor Erskine were in the top ten when Johansson beat them.

 

And yet old timers who witnessed champions from Dempsey to Ali rated Sonny almost unanimously behind Gene Tunney. for many years Sonny was missing from top ten lists.

 

Yes Cooper wasn't, not sure about Erskine or McBride but Cavicchi and Machen were. I think it is legitimate that once Ingo was champion a similar number of his victims were listed in the top ten compared to Sonny had when he was champion.

 

Your word I will take.

 

Understood, but I just cannot see Frazier , Tyson and Marciano walking straight to Charles Sonny Liston throwing hooks! They will run into the longest hardest jab in heavyweight history , then when these fighters can't come forward they are targets He would stop Tyson coming in and Mike comes out of his crouch,Bam! Same with Joe and the rock.

 

Frazier and Marciano get badly beaten imo.Tyson ,because of his handspeed has a shot but that's it.