Who is the better "all time Puncher"

see him hold back on Bugner?? Gentleman. My father had dinner with him and a few others in the 70's in Birmingham. Fella that owned the club took all his door men out for dinner, my father was one of them, with Frazier and his group. Everyone come away that night as massive Frazier fans. Great company and polite and sincere !

 

Ali was more robust than Tunney and Frazier broke him down. He catches up with Tunney and stops him around 8-10 imo

 

I see his point and tend to agree with it even if I think its a gotcha play. Guys like Williams and Shavers are always credited with being these massive punchers but never really proved against anyone remotely good. Their reputation is based on the word of fighters who beat them. Weve already had the discussion a million times about how fighters generally credit the best this and the best that to fighters theyve beaten as a way of pumping themselves up. Look at all of the Ring articles on "the best they fought" and see all of the weird answers they give. The guy that hit hardest, hurt them the most, was their most difficult fight, etc is always some guy they beat. Its been like that for decades. But if you scrutinize the records of guys like Shavers, Williams, and others of their ilk you will see the very best men the actually knocked out were past their prime, hadnt reached their prime, or simply werent that good to begin with. So if you really believe that these guys were such great punchers the question begs to be answered: "to what end?" "who cares?" You can build the biggest bullet in the world but if you dont have a gun to get it to the target it doesnt really matter. Look at it this way: The question periodically comes up "who was the strongest fighter in history?" All of the same names are always bandied about: Foreman, etc. No. The strongest fighter in history was a guy named Paul Anderson. He was the strongest man in the world at one point and then decided he was going to be a boxer. He was knocked out in three rounds. So again, what difference does it make if he was the strongest boxer in history? Did he get a championship? Notch any significant wins? No and no. And all of this above and beyond the subjective question of whether Shavers or Williams hit harder than Joe Frazier who in his prime was considered a dynamite puncher by opponents and observers alike. How do you stack Fraziers exhibitions of power against quality opposition against Williams and Shavers victories over limited opposition and draw a correlation. Its not like you are comparing apples to apples there.

 

I've never thought Frazier was anything other than a regular guy he worked hard to get where he ended up.

 

I disagree. Foreman who sparred with Williams and fought Frazier twice named three men as the hardest punchers he took punches from, Frazier wasn't one of them, Williams was!

 

It's not particularly important to me ,and it's unprovable anyway.Williams didnt knock out quality guys?
Who did Frazier actually ko who was good ? Exlhvy Doug Jones and Lhvy Bob Foster.

 

Right, but Foreman didn't get hit a whole lot by Frazier. I don't know why George Foreman is the decider.

If you asked Muhammad Ali who were the hardest punchers he faced, Joe Frazier would appear a little higher on his list than Cleveland Williams, because Williams landed next to nothing on Ali.

 

He isn't but Liston and Terrell's opinions mean something to me if not to you.

 

Jerry Quarry. Jimmy Ellis. George Chuvalo. Doug Jones. Bob Foster. Buster Mathis. Who did Williams stop? Ernie Terrell? That's about it.

 

Who did Frazier ko?Quarry,Ellis,Chuvalo,Mathis were all on their feet . Williams ko'd as in knocked out 44 men ,Frazier just 8.

 

Christ. Yeah, they were all good to go. The ringsiders were screaming at Joe Louis to stop the Frazier-Quarry fight because Quarry was about to end up in a body bag. Chuvalo begged the ref to stop it because he couldn't take it anymore. Ellis had no idea what state he was in.

Again, what stumblebums did Williams knock cold? Because the only contender he stopped was Ernie Terrell, and he didn't KO him.

These sparring partner stories remind me of Ishe Smith, back when EVERYONE who sparred with Smith - like Oscar and Vargas and Mosley - were going on and on about this mysterious sparring partner they had who was so awesome in the gym. So they put Ishe Smith on TV, and he was just a guy.

Williams fought many name heavyweights. He KOed none of them.