Is Larry Holmes a consensus top ten heavyweight?

Frazier's record against other top fighters is 'very unconvincing?' What?

Only one other top heavyweight beat Frazier.

Frazier beat Muhammad Ali, Jimmy Ellis (twice), Jerry Quarry (twice), Oscar Bonavena (twice), Joe Bugner, George Chuvalo, Buster Mathis, Eddie Machen and Doug Jones.

What's 'very unconvincing' about those?

Other than Foreman, what other top fighters whipped him?

 

No doubt about it. a better question would have been if he is a consensus TOP 5.
he is in my view

 

Rt. Probably the 'statement' has been blown out of proportion.

 

I would agree that Frazier's and Norton's tactics get a bit overrated.

Joe cut the ring off very well, but the fact is that Ali hammered him in the early rds, and Joe only established dominance when a faded Ali had pretty much punched himself out. It worked on the night, but Joe was never the same again.

Norton wasn't the only one to jab with Ali, but Ali's response to someone who did that was to look for the counter instead of jabbing (Folley, Foster and Bugner are examples of this). He just wasn't able to time Norton with counters, probably because of Norton's awkward style in throwing jabs.

 

I said Compared to larry. The only really impressive name there is Ali, who was not the same fighter anymore. Jimmy ellis also beat the guys there except for ali. I dont think any of the guys there except fotc ali would trouble holmes. Which great or elite HW in his prime over 200 pounds do you think would lose to a guy on that list except fotc ali? I think alot of the guys in Holmes era would be able to beat that list as well in their primes.

You know it doesnt even matter because most people place holmes above frazier anyway. But to have dempsey or marciano above holmes is astonishing and nonsensical

 

IT always comes down to styles but I believe Holmes was an all time top heavyweight.

 

I don't think that Holmes beat anyone that would beat all of Ramos, Mathis, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis and Bugner. Who would that be? Cooney, Berbick, Weaver, a green Witherspoon? I just don't see anyone of them doing it without picking up a loss or two somewhere on the way.

 

Ali wasn't the same after the exile, but he was better than anyone Holmes beat.

 

Yes

 

I try so hard to make a solid top ten heavyweight list. But after Ali and Louis at 1 and 2 are locked in, I struggle to come up with a true top ten which I stick to for any length of time. I currently have Holmes at number 9, but would be sympathetic to him being rated anywhere from 3 to 10, as ridiculous as that may sound.

 

Yes, he's easily in the top ten. I would argue top five.

It's a shame Holmes never fought Foreman in the late 1970's or Ali a bit sooner as he would have likely won both matches, and heck yes he was robbed in the 2nd Spinks match.

 

Yes, he's in my top ten list which I have never made. He certainly is in anyone's top ten list
of people that should keep their mouth shut, but don't.

Top ten best left jabs as well.

 

I'll try and find time to post my thoughts over the weekend.

 

Seriously, what?

Who did Holmes beat who was better than 1971 Ali? NO ONE.

Ali was 29. He'd just knocked out the #1 and #2 contenders. After he lost to Frazier, he went on a 23-1 run that lasted until he faced Spinks.

What was decisive about Holmes 'wins' over Carl Williams and Maurice Harris and Tim Witherspoon?

Only Ali and Foreman beat Frazier. How many guys beat Holmes? How many have a case they got robbed against Holmes?

Joe Frazier's record and wins are FAR MORE DECISIVE than Holmes'. Only two people ever beat Frazier, and both were arguably in the top five heavyweights ever.

Holmes had many more close fights, controversial decisions and losses to lesser guys.

As far as Holmes' contemporaries beating a lot of guys on Frazier's list that I mentioned, hell, Quarry wasted Shavers in a round and an old Joe Bugner was beating Holmes' era fighters like Greg Page, Bonecrusher Smith, David Bey, Quick Tillis in the 80s and 90s. So I wouldn't be so sure about that, either.

Here's Holmes talking about working with Joe Frazier in 1973, when Frazier was supposedly shot. And Frazier broke Holmes' ribs.

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So I'm sure Frazier would've handled himself just fine against Holmes. And I'm sure guys like Quarry and Bonavena could've handled the likes of Mike Weaver, John Tate, Earnie Shavers, Scott Ledoux, Lorenzo Zanon, Lucien Rodrigues, Alfredo Evangelista, Ossie Ocasio, Leroy Jones, Scott Frank, Carl Williams, David Bey, etc.

 

I can't see how Holmes isn't top 10. I'd say he has a good claim on top 5.