Marciano in your top 10.

When I was born, I think Rocky should be rated in the top ten. Once the 15 round format ended in the mid 1980's, the game changed to bigger skilled boxers who could jab well, in addition to other assets.

I have Rocky in my top 11-16, Fans don't always get Rocky. You don't have to be a great boxer to be a great fighter. Rocky had the best type of style to negate his lack of size. He was a forward mover type who fought out of a crouch and had a way getting inside and launching hooks or straight shots to the body or head. He could take a punch too.

He certainly hit hard enough to stop most, and his work rate, heart to fight when things aren't going his way, and will to win are still rank favorably vs most in history. If you ask which champion officially ended the color line, the best answer is Rocky Marciano. It's too bad he died young, he is one of the very best commentators I've heard.

 

I suppose your listed weight is 15 stone then. 55/15 seems right.

 

Let's see: Ali, Louis and Holmes definitely above. Then it gets a bit trickier. But Wlad and Lewis should be above as well, I think. Then probably Frazier and Holy. Then Rocky and Tyson, I think. But not much in those four. Rocky could be six and he could be nine. A good case can be made for either.

Foreman rounds off my top 10, at least today. I know many have him higher due to his remarkable achievements at old age, but for me the quality of the prime period of a fighters career is the most important, and George just didn't do enough during it to warrant a higher placing. That's how I feel right now anyway.

 

Good post Mendoza. I respect your rating.

You're right about his commentary.
If you hear him commentate a MW bout, it's interesting how astute he was about all different styles and aspects of the game.

Gives you an appreciation of the self awareness he must've had about his own unorthodox tendencies.

 

He was an excellent reader of a fight.

 

Being an overachiever is not a bad complement, it means you're smart and have the heart.
Rocky has some elite level abilities is stamina, power, heart, and the will to win, even when it means doing it the hard way, I think it might be best to start viewing heavyweights in era sense.
An older post of mine:

Enclosed are my top 15 ranked heavyweights at 20-year intervals. The criteria for the ranking as follows.

1 ) Head to head vs. the field, which is strictly my personal opinion. 40% weighting
2 ) Resume of wins and losses, excluding losses that happened when a fighter was past their prime. 30%
3 ) The distinction of the fighter as champion by beating top contenders in title matches if applicable. 20%
4 ) Historians input, which matters most to fighters, not on film. 10%
I will try to list each fighter only once, placing him closest to his prime years.

1885-1905 Pioneer era: The transitional time between bare knuckles and London Prize-ring rules to Queensberry rules.

1.Jeffries
2.Fitzsimmons
3A. Jackson
3B. Corbett
5. Sullivan
6. Sharkey
7. Slavin
8. Ruhlin
9. Goddard
10. Maher
11. Choynski
12. Hart
13. McCoy
14. O’Brien
15. Root

1906-1925 Black and white filmed era:

1. Dempsey
2. J. Johnson
3. Tunney
4. Langford
5. Wills
6. Jeanette
7. McVey
8. Willard
9. Greb
10. Gibbons
11. Burns
12. Miske
13. Godfrey
14. Norfolk
15. Smith

1926-1945 Great Depression to World War II: An era where war and the great depression in the USA hurt boxing. I have trouble with the bottom of this list, and the depth is rather thin. I also think very few in this timeline would be in the top ten today.

1. Louis
2. Charles
3. Schmeling
4. Walcott
5. M Baer
6. Carnera
7. Godfrey
8. Moore
9. Bivins
10. Schaff
11. Conn
12. Hamas
13. Pastor
14. Farr
15. Loughran

1946-1965 Golden age era:
1. Liston
2. Marciano
3. Patterson
4.Johansson
5. Ray
6. Terrell
7. Machen
8. Folley
9. Williams
10. H. Johnson
11. Valdes
12. D Jones
13. Chuvalo
14. Cooper
15. Harris

1966-1985: TV expansion to Cable and PPV: This era is loaded with talent.

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Foreman
4. Frazier
5. Norton
6. Witherspoon
7. Thomas
8. Quarry
9. Page
10. Coetzee
11. Shavers
12. Lyle
13. Cooney
14. Young
15. Weaver


1986-2000: 12 round era and super heavyweight era. This era had tremendous depth and a lot of talent.
1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe
5. Ibeabuchi
6.Byrd
7. Morrer
8. Mercer
9. Douglas
10. Tua
11. Morrison
12. Bruno
13. Rhaman
14 McCall
15. Ruiz.


2001-( ratings are of 2013 ) 2021 – Eastern European dominance era. While this era is only half over, the nations producing the top talent has shifted. Once the iron curtain in Eastern Europe fell both the amateur and professional ranks have been dominated by Eastern Europeans. Since many of the below fighters careers are over, and future talent in the amateurs will arrive, this list will likely look very different by 2021. Hopefully, we will all be here to debate it!

1A. V Klitschko
1B. W Klitschko
3. Povetkin
4. Chagaev
5. Sanders
6. Ibragimov
7. Haye
8. Brewster
9. Peter
10. Adamek
11. Chambers
12. Valuev
13. Gomez
14. Solis
15. Arreola

***Edited since 2013. Joshua now at #6 and trending upward, the others move down a spot. From here on it, it seems like 8 if 10 ranked Ring Magazine heavyweight is 6'4" to 6'9" tall, so the next bracket should be named Super Heavyweight dominance. I expect young Hrgovic to rate and possibly Dycho and Usyk.

 

The mediocre Chagaev(who isn't significally taller than Marciano) could beat the unbeaten 7' Valuev.
A great Marciano type fighter would beat Joshua.But at least Marciano never had problem
with the size- or i think Rocky never was down by an old,shot 6'6" fighters' punch, at least.

 

QUOTE="Mendoza, post: 18878235, member: 19227"]Being an overachiever is not a bad complement, it means you're smart and have the heart.
Rocky has some elite level abilities is stamina, power, heart, and the will to win, even when it means doing it the hard way, I think it might be best to start viewing heavyweights in era sense.
An older post of mine:

Enclosed are my top 15 ranked heavyweights at 20-year intervals. The criteria for the ranking as follows.

1 ) Head to head vs. the field, which is strictly my personal opinion. 40% weighting
2 ) Resume of wins and losses, excluding losses that happened when a fighter was past their prime. 30%
3 ) The distinction of the fighter as champion by beating top contenders in title matches if applicable. 20%
4 ) Historians input, which matters most to fighters, not on film. 10%
I will try to list each fighter only once, placing him closest to his prime years.

1885-1905 Pioneer era: The transitional time between bare knuckles and London Prize-ring rules to Queensberry rules.

1.Jeffries
2.Fitzsimmons
3A. Jackson
3B. Corbett
5. Sullivan
6. Sharkey
7. Slavin
8. Ruhlin
9. Goddard
10. Maher
11. Choynski
12. Hart
13. McCoy
14. O’Brien
15. Root

1906-1925 Black and white filmed era:

1. Dempsey
2. J. Johnson
3. Tunney
4. Langford
5. Wills
6. Jeanette
7. McVey
8. Willard
9. Greb
10. Gibbons
11. Burns
12. Miske
13. Godfrey
14. Norfolk
15. Smith

1926-1945 Great Depression to World War II: An era where war and the great depression in the USA hurt boxing. I have trouble with the bottom of this list, and the depth is rather thin. I also think very few in this timeline would be in the top ten today.

1. Louis
2. Charles
3. Schmeling
4. Walcott
5. M Baer
6. Carnera
7. Godfrey
8. Moore
9. Bivins
10. Schaff
11. Conn
12. Hamas
13. Pastor
14. Farr
15. Loughran

1946-1965 Golden age era:
1. Liston
2. Marciano
3. Patterson
4.Johansson
5. Ray
6. Terrell
7. Machen
8. Folley
9. Williams
10. H. Johnson
11. Valdes
12. D Jones
13. Chuvalo
14. Cooper
15. Harris

1966-1985: TV expansion to Cable and PPV: This era is loaded with talent.

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Foreman
4. Frazier
5. Norton
6. Witherspoon
7. Thomas
8. Quarry
9. Page
10. Coetzee
11. Shavers
12. Lyle
13. Cooney
14. Young
15. Weaver


1986-2000: 12 round era and super heavyweight era. This era had tremendous depth and a lot of talent.
1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe
5. Ibeabuchi
6.Byrd
7. Morrer
8. Mercer
9. Douglas
10. Tua
11. Morrison
12. Bruno
13. Rhaman
14 McCall
15. Ruiz.


2001-( ratings are of 2013 ) 2021 – Eastern European dominance era. While this era is only half over, the nations producing the top talent has shifted. Once the iron curtain in Eastern Europe fell both the amateur and professional ranks have been dominated by Eastern Europeans. Since many of the below fighters careers are over, and future talent in the amateurs will arrive, this list will likely look very different by 2021. Hopefully, we will all be here to debate it!

1A. V Klitschko
1B. W Klitschko
3. Povetkin
4. Chagaev
5. Sanders
6. Ibragimov
7. Haye
8. Brewster
9. Peter
10. Adamek
11. Chambers
12. Valuev
13. Gomez
14. Solis
15. Arreola

***Edited since 2013. Joshua now at #6 and trending upward, the others move down a spot. From here on it, it seems like 8 if 10 ranked Ring Magazine heavyweight is 6'4" to 6'9" tall, so the next bracket should be named Super Heavyweight dominance. I expect young Hrgovic to rate and possibly Dycho and Usyk.[/QUOTE]

Your 1986-2000 rating is total crap considering Tucker beat Douglas and McCall also and went the
distance with Tyson an Lewis.
Old 42 years old Holmes could beat the unbeaten. Mercer.Ot the very old Foreman destroyed the unbeaten Moorer.Etc...
Tucker and Holmes deserve a Top 10 position at least like Spinks.
You overrated Byrd,Mercer,Moorer,Ibeabuchi,Tua and Morrison at least.
Klitschko fans...

 

Chagaev was 3 inches taller than Rocky and 43lbs heavier,he also had over 5 inches of reach on him.
I'm not saying this means he beats Rocky,just that there IS a significant size differential. Wlad wasn't shot when he fought AJ, his performance proved it.
Rocky never faced a 6'6" ,240lbs class man, so the rest of your statement is ludicrous.

 

Chagaev was built a bit like Rocky. I would say Rocky hit a little harder and was better conditioned, and Chagaev more skilled. IMO Chagaev's best weight was about 215, not 230. As an accomplished amateur, Chagaev fought under 201 pounds, about 13 pounds heavier than Marciano.

Chagaev beat Valuev, who looks to be about 6'11" tall with counter punching in an close but interesting fight. I think Rocky would do the same.

When you are short with limited reach as both men were, power becomes even more important.

Wlad was 41, and 1.5 years removed from the ring, he was the best shape he could be in at that age, but hardly in his prime, and if he was in his mid 30's likely wins. I think Joshua spit out his mouth piece when he needed to go gain 10-12 seconds on unsteady legs, but that is another thread

 

Rocky "never faced" but this doesn't prove he wouldn't beat an 6'6" Xlbs "class" fighter.The fact he
never had big problem with the tall guys.(You use only speculation.)
I think Chagaev is only 5'11" but otherwise 3 inches isn't a big height difference.Chagaev was heavier than
Rocky by FAT.Otherwise the weight doesn't mean harder and more effective punches automatically.
But ok, i accept Chagaev 3 inches taller than Rocky but between Valuev and Joshua you'll see
bigger height difference + Valuev never was down by an old,shot (Fury fight proved) fighter punch.
Just saying...

 

1986-2000: 12 round era and super heavyweight era. This era had tremendous depth and a lot of talent.
1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe
5. Ibeabuchi
6.Byrd
7. Morrer
8. Mercer
9. Douglas
10. Tua
11. Morrison
12. Bruno
13. Rhaman
14 McCall
15. Ruiz.


2001-( ratings are of 2013 ) 2021 – Eastern European dominance era. While this era is only half over, the nations producing the top talent has shifted. Once the iron curtain in Eastern Europe fell both the amateur and professional ranks have been dominated by Eastern Europeans. Since many of the below fighters careers are over, and future talent in the amateurs will arrive, this list will likely look very different by 2021. Hopefully, we will all be here to debate it!

1A. V Klitschko
1B. W Klitschko
3. Povetkin
4. Chagaev
5. Sanders
6. Ibragimov
7. Haye
8. Brewster
9. Peter
10. Adamek
11. Chambers
12. Valuev
13. Gomez
14. Solis
15. Arreola

***Edited since 2013. Joshua now at #6 and trending upward, the others move down a spot. From here on it, it seems like 8 if 10 ranked Ring Magazine heavyweight is 6'4" to 6'9" tall, so the next bracket should be named Super Heavyweight dominance. I expect young Hrgovic to rate and possibly Dycho and Usyk.[/QUOTE]

Your 1986-2000 rating is total crap considering Tucker beat Douglas and McCall also and went the
distance with Tyson an Lewis.
Old 42 years old Holmes could beat the unbeaten. Mercer.Ot the very old Foreman destroyed the unbeaten Moorer.Etc...
Tucker and Holmes deserve a Top 10 position at least like Spinks.
You overrated Byrd,Mercer,Moorer,Ibeabuchi,Tua and Morrison at least.
Klitschko fans...[/QUOTE]

Hmmm. Looks like I forgot about Tucker. I would say Douglas win over Tyson is better than anything Tucker did. Douglas also beat McCall. And Berbick, Page and Cobb.

Tucker was good at going the distance vs the best in Lewis and Tyson. I'd place Tucker around #13 from the 1986-2000 time line.

Now after reading your reply, show me you list from 1986-2000 and we can all see who you think is better than
Byrd, Mercer, Moorer, Ibeabuchi, Tua and Morrison. I'll be waiting to read it. The above post will be edited to include Tucker.

 

So, according to you, the census 'guesses his DOB at 1917' and yet you, while using this very same census as your proof that you were right, said in post 110 that he was '3 years and 2 months' at the time of the census.

This is a hell of a census. One minute it can only guess at the year of birth and the next it's virtually giving you a birth weight and telling you what the midwife's name was.

Rocky may not have had the best defence but he wasn't as easy to pick off as you.

 

Marciano never a great fighter but a near great...excellent infighter...tough dude..top 7 or 8

 

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Sonny Liston
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Larry Holmes
6. George Foreman
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Lennox lewis