As of now: Crawford or Lomachenko higher pound for pound?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Dec 12, 2017.


Who is the more perfect fighter at this juncture, IYO?

Poll closed Feb 10, 2018.
  1. Vasyl "Hi-Tek" Lomachenko #1

    64.2%
  2. Terence "Bud" Crawford #1

    23.2%
  3. Vasyl "Hi-Tek" Lomachenko higher, but lower than #1

    6.3%
  4. Terence "Bud" Crawford higher, but lower than #1

    6.3%
  1. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    And IB I have nothing against Loma. Nothing at all. He's good for boxing. Ive penalized many fighters and not for losing. Fighters lose.

    A loss does not mean that every fighter is penalized during their career. But...I've seen too many great rematches where the other guy gained revenge, fought trilogies and sometimes 4 and 5 fights in history etc etc. Loma just has to keep on wining in order for me to forget about the Salido debacle.

    Loma was not penalized by me for losing.

    It's not doing the rematch under any amount of circumstances. That's why I have a problem with Loma being ranked pfp and pfp best. I had to rank him at 10 because he did fight another pfp entrant.
     
  2. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha lmao.
     
  3. Jambon

    Jambon Active Member Full Member

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    Time and promoters can make things difficult for him now. But he can defenitivly still defeat most guys out there.
     
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  4. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    In the immortal words of Martin Payne- Sitchurdumbassdown..!!!
     
  5. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    Not having a loss means there is a hole in your resume. The reason you haven't lost is because you haven't fought somebody good enough to beat you at that time the fight took place.

    No man is unbeatable. Sure they're more vulnerable when they are green or over the hill. But great fighters in their prime get beat by talented fighters too.

    Why hasn't a fighter lost? It's simple they haven't fought tough enough competition.
     
  6. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    Lmmfao. IB is going to have a field day with this one lmao.
     
  7. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    There is no psychological ploy to convince people that losing is great, but it's not the end of the world especially early in career. Both Hopkins and JMM lost their debut.

    But as I said boxing is the world's oldest sport going on thousands years old. And a loss is only the end of the world in the last 10 years. Either everybody from the past were idiots or modern fans have a hard on for undefeated records. It's either or.
     
  8. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA Full Member

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    Crawford hasn't fought anybody of equal or greater worth p4p than a 33-year-old (18 year veteran) Salido, is what you're saying, then?
     
  9. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    I don't know how old IB is, but I suspect he's got to be under 40. My dad's an old school fight fan. He's almost 60 years old. If somebody told him that people were hesitant to rate a fighter based on losing his 2nd pro fight and that this was his only professional loss he'd laugh in your face. It just wouldn't register in his brain. Not that his approval means a damn at all.

    But it seems the mentality of the fan today and media deviates from the older fellows.
     
  10. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    I get what you're saying but this post is essentially strawman. Not a single man who ever walked the Earth was unbeatable. So why is anybody undefeated then if nobody is capable of never losing? Well logically the answer must be his competition hasn't been strong enough.
     
  11. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA Full Member

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    I am under 40, but not by all that much. :lol:

    I'm not hung up on the zero, trust me. I don't hold losses against fighters - unless we are comparing the otherwise dead-even resumes of two competitors for p4p ranking purposes, then it almost becomes an imperative to start taking into account 1) the value of the names beaten on both resumes, 2) circumstances around those victories, and 3) yes, other results besides victories. ie having a draw with or loss to a guy, unless that guy is himself top 15 p4p material and thereby forgivable, does and must count against you when the other guy has also beaten names of comparable enough quality and there's no reason to believe they would draw with or lose to whoever your bogeyman was (or the analogue of that bogeyman in their own division)

    For instance, the nearest available equivalent to Salido for Crawford during his rise up, based on styles/temperament/career trajectory/overall class, would be Ray Beltran. Crawford actually fought him, and shut him out. So that's a stumbling block for Lomachenko that Crawford managed to hurdle successfully. Loma didn't clearly get past the mini Beltran. Crawford easily shut out the mega-Salido. Case closed.
     
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  12. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA Full Member

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    That isn't how boxing works, though, and you know that. Lomachenko didn't lose to Salido because Salido was the best guy he ever fought. Nobody believes that. I'm not sure even Siri believes that.

    A 37 year old Salido was a nightmare for Lomachenko but he was absolutely not the best fighter Lomachenko has faced to date. He's top 5, barely (of freaking 11 :lol:) but not the strongest. A handful of the guys Lomachenko beat, would in turn probably beat any version of Salido from the same 2013 version that beat Loma, on. Styles make fights. We all know this. Fact is, when presented with adversity, with a tough stylistic puzzle, with your own personal kryptonite, with an unsympathetic ref, with lots of fouling, you are expected - if you want to be considered greater p4p than somebody with an extremely similar quantity of extremely similar quality in their W column - to rise above those circumstances, man up, and win clearly. Lomachenko wasn't quite able to do that in his sophomore pro effort. NO SHAME WHATSOEVER there. I respect Lomachenko immensely for dusting himself off, going back to work, and learning from the loss without taking his ball and going home like so many whiny pampered little bitches in this sport do when they lose for the first time - and putting together a string of performances that has put him up for p4p #1 consideration. That's downright incredible! BUT - we can't simply pretend that it doesn't count against him in a direct head to head comparison that he fought a guy that, between Crawford's resume and his own combined, is maybe the 7th or 8th best opponent p4p (and that's being GENEROUS to my boy Orlando!!) and found a way to not clearly win.
     
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  13. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    Would you favor Gary Russel Jr. p4p equivalent (prime version) over Crawford in Crawford's 2nd pro fight? I understand that Loma was no normal pro novice and was a polished fighter, but still having to learn and navigate the professional style takes a handful of fights even for an accomplished amateur.

    Other than that though I agree with the rest of your post except I don't consider their resume's dead even. Loma's beaten 3 fighters (Russel Jr. Walters, old Rigo) that are better than Postol which is Crawford's best win.
     
  14. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA Full Member

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    I rate both the Gamboa and Félix Díaz wins higher than Postol, myself.
     
  15. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    Interesting even considering how tiny Gamboa was?