Low blows: Andre Ward vs Kovalev 2

I see what you are saying. I did want to see Ward still active but respect if someone who puts their health on the line retires. I wanted to see Ward face a fast 2 handed boxer as he didnt seem interested in facing any. He didnt face Andre Dirrell, didnt face Bute, decided not to face Degale and ended his career with 2 controversial fights where I felt he lost the first one and thought was losing the second before it ended with what looked like punches below the belt.
Maybe retirement was the right move as I dont think Ward is a great boxer but is a very effective brawler. Kovalev was really winning those fights with a jab. Theres some good LHWs on the way

 

I cant say what Ward would or wouldnt be thinking but why not fight within the rules if you feel you are going to win or can win? but I felt Kovalev was beating Ward in the second fight.
What has always shocked me was that in the 4th round Kovalev looked to be hit by an elbow and I cant recall any other poster mentioning it. Ward was being caught alot in that round and then it looked like he landed an elbow. Elbows and low blows are outside of the rules of boxing.
I dont know if it was intentional or not but have seen elbows go in before in other fights

Watch between 14:20 and 14:30

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So let's say, for argument's sake, that Ward is merely a very good 'boxer' (as in, long to mid-range outboxer) in addition to being a very effective 'brawler' (as in, mauling infighter?) -- very good 'boxer' + very effective 'brawler' sounds like a heck of a combination to me, given Ward's ability to quickly and sneakily move to the inside and thus transition effectively between the two roles. It's odd to me that you don't seem to see any strength in possessing aptitude in multiple areas. I take it that Ward's ability to introduce another dimension in the 8th, bobbing and weaving in front of Kovalev at mid-range to initiate and win exchanges, dragging Sergey into a calculated dogfight, also left you unimpressed? Perhaps versatility is a cause for praise no longer, in these 'evolved' times.

If we're saying that Ward is less than a very good 'boxer', dead discussion. You don't have the outboxing success Ward's had against the variety of guys he'd had it with if you're less than very good at long to mid-range. Aside from humoring your statement for argument's sake, there's much more evidence to suggest that Ward is a great 'boxer' than not. Your sole exhibit against Ward seems to be that Kovalev troubled him at long to mid-range; could it not just be that Sergey is great in that area himself and possessed a perceptible edge in it when both men were fresh? Given what Ward had already proven as a 'boxer', it shouldn't have to be all or nothing. Do you also believe that Ray Leonard is not a great 'boxer' on account of the severe issues he was given at long to mid-range by Tommy Hearns?

Notwithstanding that Ward should have elected to do the Dawson fight at 175, thus saving a degree of credit that was eventually deducted from the win, I'd say Chad was plenty fast and offensively capable enough with his left (not just dependent on the strong right hand common among southpaw converts), and Andre figured him out quite early. That said, combined wins over Bute and Dirrell might've put a somewhat stronger tick alongside that "fast 2 handed boxer" category. Yet and still, Ward has enough variety and quality on his ledger to not need them - it doesn't hurt his legacy much that Bute couldn't get by Froch and that Dirrell pulled out of both their scheduled and rescheduled bouts. The robustness of his body of work isn't hinging on those two guys.

 

Delusional fanboys can pretend to themselves Kovalev was hit with multiple lowblows all they like.

For those of us that prefer to embrace reality rather than live in denial, we saw Ward take Kovs soul with a beautiful display of body punching, and a peach of a right hand.

 

"For those of us that prefer to embrace reality... " you sound delusional...great name by the way

 

Just watched the fight back, man that beating Kova took was even more brutal than I remember. Ward destroyed him, and the only borderline lowblow was the the final shot.

Absolutely incredible performance from Ward, best win in boxing this year by a country mile.

 

Theres a lot of dudes in here that share the "victim" mentality with Kovalev. Dont ever wander it a bad neighborhood, youll wake up in a pool of your blood with only your underwear. Sharks can smell a "vic" a mile away. Carry yourself like a man.

 

Wow thats a long post for a small part of a comment

Your response so far seems full of emotion and in my opinion only a bit exaggerated.
Dont get me wrong. I think Ward has some skills but dont think he is a great boxer, but do think effective brawler.
Often brawling can go against the rules and low blows, holding and hitting, using the head against an opponent, using elbows, ducking below the waist. You should know this as a fan. These are things outside the rules of the sport.
I dont think Ward is a good mid to long range boxer. His most effective work is up close which can often be brawling. There is legal boxing brawling as well as things outside of the rules as noted

You see what I said about full of emotion. You are not prepared for counters to your opinion and I have said Ward is an effective brawler

So tell me all these top prime fighters he looked good against with mid-range boxing. Who are the boxer movers that Ward fought because I cant think of them?
Andre Dirrell he didnt fight and I read they couldnt agree location
Bute he didnt fight and please dont use the he would of won because he beat Froch comment. Different styles. Bute was a boxer mover and another fighter he didnt face.
Degale was another boxer mover and Ward had a change of mind about facing Degale according to a member of Degales team.
Ward didnt face any top prime SMWs, and mainly when faded.
With Kessler he had to hit and hold and pull in close and when he came from longer range it was at times with head use.
With Froch he was holding and hitting
With Bika it was up close with elbows etc
With Kovalev he looked to me as if he lost the first fight when it was kept longer and I havent heard all of the talk that Kovalev was a great boxer before or since, though I felt he did outbox Ward
In the return with Kovalev it seemed to have more brawling with low blows and an elbow I think

See above with regards to Kovalev.
As for comparing Ward and Leonard. Leonard was proven that he could box at range beautifully. It was Leonards first loss when he brawled rather than boxing.
When posters come out with comments like this and trying to compare completely different boxers, thats when you know they dont have a great argument. Ridiculous comparison.

As you note, comparing Dawson who was weight drained is poor and Dawson had already been exposed by Pascal.
You are right that had Ward faced undefeated Bute and won a long range fight there would be a better point to what you are trying to preach without any proof, but Ward decided against facing Bute who was considered his biggest threat.
As with Andre Dirrell, I didnt know they had 2 scheduled bouts but do know that I read neither could agree on the location and read neither went into training even though a date was supposed to be set.
As said one of Degales team mentioned Ward had a change of mind about facing Degale

So we come back around to where we started as a proven effective brawler

 

you surely must be a lawyer

 

In Europe, skills and talent are everything, people follow the rules to a "T" because it leaves them an out, and Europeans tend to be overtly finesse to an effiminate gender dysphoria type point.

In America, due to it's history, migrant patterns, and social dynamic........ Skills and talent are cool and all, but if you want to reach the pinnacle in something American society has interest in and has deemed important - you need serious stones, GRIT, and gotta be a flat-out DOG. Screw the rules, you gotta bite down, get it rockin', and bang it up. Europeans are playing paper, rock, scissors, shoot! While Americans are jamming out with assault rifles. It was Kovalev's CHOICE to bring a butter knife to an automatic assault rifle fight. He never had it upstairs and never will. You'll never see a kid from Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC, Chicago, Detroit, Oakland - any major American city - bring anything less than an AK-47 to the table. Any kid who "Makes it" is gonna be loaded to the teeth with GRIT and will be a stone cold DOG.

GRIT - A competitors ability to manipulate the tempo and interactions with opponents in an event and impose their will on them and the event by sheer drive, determination, will to win...... Gameness.

Andre Ward - ALL GRIT. Is he as good a boxer at range as Kovalev? Nah, but he has huge stones and Kov - like his supporters - is packing bleeding ovaries. Wayne Rooney, Sidney Crosby, Tom Brady, Jimmy Butler are all examples of athletes in other sports competing at the most elite level not off skill or talent, but out of straight up GRIT.

Exceptionally skilled and talented athletes who had/have 0 GRIT: Alexander Semin, Drew Bledsoe(hurts me to put him here but it's true), Jeff Green, Andrew Wiggins.

Sports - especially sports that are simultaneously a sport and REAL COMBAT - are not skills and talent competitions or displays. They are competitive events that value certain skills and talent but above all, GRIT and will to win rule the kingdom and always will, at least in America where men wear pants and have external genitals.

You do what it takes to win. FOR THE LAST FRIGGIN TIME. Bend some rules, break others - when you need to - you don't totally disregard or you'll get disqualified. Bending and breaking the rules and getting away with it is a skill in itself. Habitual losers and victims are the only people who follow the rules to a "T" because all it does is leave them an "out" when the going gets tough and gives them something to point to as a reason why they lost in humiliating fashion. They point to it to try and keep their pride, but the only people who still buy into that fake pride are straight suckers. It's for wealthy and privileged people with no substance. There's no wealth or privilege in the ghetto, substance is all that matters there.

I'm not trying to hurt or offend anyone, honest to God, but personally it appears to me if you're trying to defend Kovalev you probably share and value similar traits to him. You look like straight "vics." And I guess that's cool and fine if you're good with it, just don't veer off the beaten path.

 

Lol at andre ward not being an elite boxer, but an effective brawler. Probable ATG and arguably one of the 5 most elite boxers of the last 15 years who's defining trait is straight up GRIT. Did anyone really expect anything besides that from a kid from Oakland, CA.?

 

Not a good one.
Long post but was easy to dismantle

 

Oh jeszz let it go. Kova lost the second. Low blows? Yes. But I thought Kova was street? A G? A dog? Return in kind... Don't whimper out like that! Loma & GGG been 'dogged' loads they don't! Kovalev is an exceptional boxing talent but he isn't the machine many think, he's mentally weaker than I suspected, he's had some issues with his training & trainer etc but he can come back strong... ODH lost to Mosley it doesn't ruin his legacy much really so man up Kova. Ward is dirty, boring & forgettable but he beat Sergey second him round. Just let it go.

 

Just browsed this, but from what you have said, I think is that Europeans like to play fair and Americans dont?
Would that be why Ward didnt ever try and defend or contest a title as an away fighter?
For all this talk of grit and stuff, was it not Ward who wouldnt be the away fighter during the S6?

Still for all of your ridiculous talk, just look at HW boxing in America. Over 230 HWs based in America compared to around 42 based in the UK. In that 42 there soon could be 43 if Fury comes back, which would make T Fury, A Joshua, D Whyte, D Chisora, H Fury, Other HWs in the background like Bellew, Price and Haye with up and comers like Dubois and Joyce.
Looks alot stronger overall. Are they all victims?

 

Most Europeans like to play fair and share the victim mentality. Actually, all but you're two islands and one or two mediterranean countries. America was colonized by the British - thank God and not the Germans - so it was British culture and customs that set the tone of what was to come. One thing that has stood out to me - in a searingly blatant way - is that the majority of people from the UK and Ireland are flat-out DOGS loaded with GRIT and have way more fight and gameness in them than any other Europeans. Not all are like that and vice versa, but I've been to legitimate WAR with all those guys, and Brits and Irish more than noticeably stand out in that department. The Germans would have conquered the world and won WWII if the Brits weren't like that. You were never matching them on efficiency or ability, not even close, you literally just wouldn't stay the **** down.

Stop listing HW's from the UK and USA. I like and root for a lot of fighters - especially HW's and CW's - from the UK. I specifically said when America has an interest in something and deems it important. Obviously American society deemed boxing "niche" and irrelevant a long time ago - especially the HW scene. When we did value it - you guys and everyone else could forget it cause you weren't even competing at the same thing.