Marciano v.s. Bruno ?

Well ok then. We shall include him as a SMW or small LHW who could whip LHW guys.

The record still shows after the war, once his career kickstarted after that three year break that just 12 of Ezzard Charles’ next 87 fights were true LHW contests where both he and his opponent were within the LHW limit. 12 of 87.

If we keep hearing Rocky was really a cruiser then I want to start hearing Charles was really a SMW before the war!

 

Such blatant dishonesty chok. Any fool knows there was no super middleweight around in Charles day.

 

And there was no cruiserweight back in those days either was there?

 

What's cruiserweight got to do with the conversation? Just admit you were grossly wrong and attempting to lead people up the garden path.

 

Charles was obvious a relatively well-preserved professional at the 10-mark stage of his career, despite having mixed with so many top fighters. He was having his 73rd recorded professional fight in September 1950, against Joe Louis. And he was still looking like a prime fighter.
However, by the time he faced Marciano in summer 1954, with 96 pro fights behind him, it is fair to say he had declined a fair bit. Still a top 5 heavyweight in the world but on his way out. Marciano finished him off.
Charles had always relied a lot on speed and mobility to tackle the heavyweights anyway. Even a fresher 33-year-old is probably starting to slow, and with almost 100 fights and some wars in there, 14 years of pro boxing, he's obviously going to have lost a step.

 

No If we accept charles was technically was a lightheavyweight at the point he started beating lightheavyweights then shouldn’t we start accepting he was a heavyweight when he first started beating guys that were heavyweights?

 

Charles was one of the best fighters of all time. I think his first career he was beginning to burn out and the war came just in time to salvage his potential. Charles had 32 fights in three years, he was just a 21 year old kid, still growing and starting to lose hard because of the heavy schedule. Lloyd Marshall gave him an appalling beating decking him 8 times. His fight previous to this was another beating from Jimmy Bivins.

“Jimmy Bivins of Cleveland, ranked by the NBA as the logical contender for the light heavyweight title held by Gus Lesnevich blasted out a 10 round decision over Ezzard Charles of Cincinnati here Thursday night. Bivins was all business last night as he floored Charles three times for a count of nine. Charles also took a count of two in the 8th of the scrap”

So a three year break from boxing gave Charles the chance to recover from this. He grew above 170 and within 13 months of coming back he beat both Lloyd Marshall and Bivins by crushing revenge knockout wins. In fact until Walcott knocked him out nobody beat Charles beyond dispute in 42 fights into his relaunch.

From losing his title to fighting Marciano Charles form did not suffer that much. During an incredible schedule he went 14-4 against top guys over three years. His next bout with Walcott could have went either way, his his loss to Harold Johnson (in his hometown) could have went either way, his loss to Rex Layne (in his hometown) was disputed and avenged twice. The only true blip was the loss to Valdes which was immediately eclipsed by stunning wins over Satterfeild and Wallace. In fact Charles had crushed Billy Gilliam who had beat Valdes and Nino only went on to lose to Satterfeild and Moore whom Charles mastered.

When Charles record really took a hit was after the Rocky fights. That’s what sent him over the edge. As Don Turner says. Charles was an ATG. After Rocky he became a losing fighter. “if he never fought Rocky he would have been alright”.

And to be fair to Charles, I think his fights took a lot out of Rocky too.

 

Charles did campaign at MW the first 3 years of his career.

Im not counting the bouts lol but late 42 he transitions and gets launched into the LHW ratings with the upsets over Maxim. He then struggles with Bivins and Marshall before his WW2 break.

 

Exactly. He needed to be a proper sized lightheavyweight to beat the best lightheavyweights. He wasn’t even shaving when Bivins and Marshall beat him. A 21 year old kid rushed into 34 fights against grown men. The war came to Charles rescue. It allowed him to fill out into the division. If you look at photos of Charles in that first career it’s unbelievable to think of him as a real LHW.

 

It's certainly possible that the break in the war years help extend Charles's career. It's reasonable speculation but only speculation.
I think everyone would agree his true prime years were immediately post-ww2.

This isn't actually anything unusual though. He turned professional at 18 in 1940... and 7 or 8 years later he his is prime, at age 26 ... around 1947.
He retains his prime for maybe 3 or 4 years, then starts on a decline, which is accelerated by some beatings.
Makes sense.

 

Yes, about that Harold Johnson film, Charles won that fight didn’t he? I don’t think there was anymore shame having a close fight with Johnson than there was having a close fight challenging Walcott in a bout that could have went either way. Charles was still a great fighter between losing his title to challenging Rocky.

 

Almost all of these fights in his first 3 years he came in just over middleweight. He may have been campaigning there (and able to make the weight no doubt) but barely ever fought at 160 and under.

 

Absolutely safe to say he wasn't what he'd previously been. Still very good but declined some.