Could floyd block a jab?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Jay1990, Jan 4, 2018.


  1. J Jones

    J Jones Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Escudo,

    Wow, talk about going off on a creative tangent! It sounds like you began with a good idea for a book and the book took on a more robust life of its own. I feel your pain and often find myself dealing with similar situations. However, once I reach the finish line, I always look back with satisfaction and have an easier time being happy with the result. If your book is half as good as your fight analysis, you can count on my purchase.

    Regarding Floyd: I think you and I see him quite similarly. Like you, I am not a fan of the man, but do recognize the supreme talent as a fighter. That said, I’d like to get your take on a few mythical matchups involving fighters I believe could’ve given Floyd some stylistic problems to solve, win or lose. Keep in mind, I’m talking about prime versions of these fighters, in 15 round fights.

    Hearns...give me Hearns by T/KO
    Leonard...SRL by decision
    Benitez...toss up
    Pryor...I’ll take Pryor by UD
    Curry...no clue, but I lean towards Floyd
    Norris...I’ll take Floyd
    Whitaker...toss up, but I lean towards Sweet Pea
    Trinidad...Floyd quite easily
    Winky...a true stylistic nightmare for Floyd...give me Winky by decision.

    I intentionally left out a few of the usual suspects ATGs, e.g., Armstrong, SRR, Gavilán, and Nápoles based on the differences between same day weights and day before weigh-ins.
     
  2. escudo

    escudo Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree with most of your assessments though I think Floyd would beat Benitez due to his use of the body jab which is great to punish a lot of head movement. I think Winky would be tough match-up but I'm not ready to call him a stylistic nightmare. Winky had probably the best high guard in history but was offensively limited. He had a great jab but I think Floyd could counter it and feint Winky out of position often enough to edge it. I haven't watched a lot of Curry or Norris so I'll with hold my opinion.

    For the record if anybody think Floyd has anything for Sugar Ray Robinson they are out of their minds. I'd bet on him to beat Floyd before even Hearns.
     
  3. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I take it you mean Mayweather and De la Hoya rather than Patterson and Bonavena? Interesting question. I'll have to re-watch the fight, or at least skim it...
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, jab's the punch to get him with. The Oscar fight told that story.

    Mayweather’s first round against De La Hoya was a dream. Oscar shuffled forward bereft of any plan other than being big and somehow getting Floyd to march back to the ropes based upon his size. He fought square and jabless. Floyd on the other hand moved gracefully, jabbed with an uncharacteristic frequency, sometimes varying with a hook. Oscar didn’t land a significant punch and was quickly smothered on the one occasion he managed to get Floyd to the ropes. No problems were set for the pound-for-pound champ in that first. Mayweather controlled the center of the ring with his footwork and his left hand alone.

    In the second, everything changed. It changed because De La Hoya started throwing his jab.

    Oscar De La Hoya’s jab became a subject of some controversy when Emanuel Steward labeled it one of the very finest in history. I’m not sure that this statement can be justified, but when his jab is at its very best, as it was against Felix Trinidad or Miguel Gonzalez, it is an exceptional one. Over the next few rounds it would become the most significant weapon in De La Hoya’s bid to unseat the pound-for-pound #1. This, in many ways, was something of a surprise. Mayweather had opened jabbing forcefully and was De La Hoya’s technical superior. Generally “The Golden Boy” doesn’t do well jabbing with jabbers. Whitaker and Quartey are examples of top-class jabbers who have out-jabbed him, but more recently even Felix Sturm had arguably won that particular technical battle against De La Hoya.

    Regardless, the first three punches Oscar threw in that second round were jabs and Mayweather, suddenly, was banished from the center of the ring. This is the first key ingredient in jabbing Mayweather. He needs to be taken to the ropes by more than just crowding and badgering. Mayweather respects and is alert to a jab that gains his attention. It’s the punch which most quickly reduces the deficit in hand speed he has over most opponents.

    Secondly, it is a points gatherer. The jab is to modern boxing what world peace is to Miss Universe; to whit, you need to put it out there if you want to impress the judges. Taking control of the fight against Mayweather has proven so difficult for a succession of opponents that many of them have forgotten to fight whilst they are moving him back. The jab should be the weapon of choice.

    Finally, Mayweather is a punch-picker extraordinaire. Those wishing to undermine him deride this skill as only being the type of hit-and-run tactics that saw him booed and in tears after the Carlos Baldomir fight. This is not the case. Mayweather picks the right punch. That’s a gift. But it takes time, in the fight, to perfect. He likes to measure his man. He likes to come to understand him. He likes to find the chinks in his armour that he can exploit. He’s a very specific fighter. The jab is the most general punch to deal with but the one that can be thrown with the most variety.

    Mayweather couldn‘t match that jab. This meant that he was firmly on the backfoot. Mayweather punches from the backfoot as well as anyone in boxing, but a breach of the laws of physics are something that even Money can’t buy. There is an excellent demonstration of this just twenty seconds into that second round when De La Hoya decided he would lead with the right. It missed by an Irish country mile. What was interesting was that Mayweather also missed with his counter. He had scored with a near identical punch at around the same time in round one. The reason Floyd was now missing was that he was now leaning away, trying to slip Oscar’s jabs as opposed to in behind his own jabs. Even the most graceful of fighters needs a moment to make that adjustment and punch.

    And that’s it. In one strategically shift the fight was changed and Oscar was in charge. Fighting Mayweather cannot be about strategy alone however. Rather, a strategically quilt needs to be sewn together from a series of specific tactics. Mayweather’s adaptability, intrinsic ability and exceptional technical acumen needs to be offset by specific detail rather than any grand plan. “I’ll do my thing and let him worry about me” will get you beaten, but “use good head movement, move forward behind a jab, try to pin him on the ropes” will get you just as beaten, even if it is by a smaller margin.

    As a speedster and technician whose job it is to avoid being landed on first, Mayweather now had a full plate in front of him. Furthermore he is engaged at a higher level by virtue of the fact that he has been set a specific problem. What Oscar has to do now is set him another one.

    Not a great feinter, De La Hoya tries his luck after their brief tussle right behind their both missing power punches only thirty-five seconds into round two. Mayweather’s reaction is fulsome. He darts back with head and body and momentarily gives up the support of his leading foot. When Juan Manuel Marquez fought Mayweather what meager success he had was born of feinting, feinting Mayweather out of position then chasing him with a long right hand. This is a punch that a less experienced fighter wouldn’t chuck at Money if he boxed him for forty rounds, but Marquez knew that once he had feinted Mayweather out of position and into a lean or a slip for a nonexistent punch he became, momentarily, just like any other fighter. For Oscar, it is worth more than it would be worth to Marquez because it is a second layer in his controlling offence. It is not something that scores De La Hoya any points, but it leads Mayweather a little further down the garden path, it’s a secondary way to take control of distance and timing, Mayweather territory.

    Mayweather’s immediate reaction is fascinating. He backs up whilst throwing out a tentative, nothing jab. He’s fully engaged, jabbing with a great jabber, trying to deliver on pure backfoot tactics against a larger opponent who is jabbing at him when he is trying to counter. He’s certainly not being dominated and he rolls most of Oscar’s best punches, but he’s gone from fighting his dream fight in the first round to the best fight De La Hoya could have hoped for in the second.

    Then, the mystery. Halfway through the fight, Oscar abandoned his jab. Theories as to why crammed internet message boards for days afterwards, not least due to the man’s own feeble “it wasn’t to be the night of the jab” explanation. This vacuum of information has led to rife speculation, most commonly that Floyd countered the jab out of Oscar’s arsenal through the fifth. This did not happen. In fact, Oscar was countered more in that second round than he was in fifth, a round in which only one of his six jabs were countered. My best guess, partially confirmed by remarks made after the fight by De La Hoya cornerman Freddie Roach, was that he had become tired, had lost a step and that he just found himself too far behind the fleet-footed Floyd to get set and jab at him. Mayweather’s resulting takeover was rapid, near complete, and enough to get him the split decision on the cards.

    None of this is to suggest that a world-class jab stuck to a twelve-round fighter is enough to beat a fighter like Mayweather. As we’ve seen, even to steal four of the first six rounds, it takes more. But a fighter who has those things, and the imagination, physicality or dynamism to provide more individual but intertwined challenges might be able to do it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  5. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Any theory on why his jab was so ineffective with Paquiao, against whom he had a huge reach advantage? (This isn't a pointed question, I honestly don't understand it.)

    I mean it's not like Pac just edged him out while he was on the downslide -he cut him to ribbons in the most thorough domination I can readily recall ever seeing between two fighters at that level.

    Was Oscar really that shot? After all this wasn't long after he drew (or had a split decision, I forget) with Mayweather.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    From memory, Oscar cut a shitload of weight and then on-the night weighed in at basically the same weight. In other words, he wanted to box at 154ish, broke himself down to 145 and then only put on a couple of pounds post-weigh in. Sounds like something went very wrong with him.

    No idea if it's not that.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Boxrec says Pac only got upwards of 11m for that fight. Crazy if true.
     
  8. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    If true, that might explain a lot, at least to my mind. Interesting...
     
  9. J Jones

    J Jones Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I believe the answer all comes down to footwork. Manny’s tendency is to move to his right, particularly when he comes with the left hand lead. This movement shortens the distance his punch has to travel, ensures a powerful follow through, punching through the target if you will, and leaves him in an advantageous position to execute his own offense while being outside the orthodox fighter’s lead hand. Coincidentally, Oscar’s best weapons, jab and left hook, come from his dominant left hand. As a standup, converted orthodox boxer, with a virtually nonexistent right hand, Oscar was a sitting duck for Manny’s fast flurries and by the time he pulled the trigger on his own punches, Manny was out of range.

    Cotto fell victim to this tactic as well. Like Oscar, Cotto is a converted orthodox fighter. On the occasions when he managed to keep Pacquiao in front of him, he made the mistake of throwing 3 and 4 punch combinations at a fighter who immediately throws back when hit and possesses superior hand speed. He even suffered a knockdown, mid-combination, as a result.

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    Pacquiao’s Daddy, aka Dinamita, is quite effective at keeping Manny in front of him at all costs. If you look at his feet when the KO punch lands, you can see that the toe area of Marquez’s left foot is touching the OUTSIDE of Manny’s right mid-foot. This leaves Manny in a terrible position, with tables turned, and heading face first into a short right hand Sunday punch that results in one of the most memorable, awe inspiring, one-punch KOs in recent memory.
     
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  10. rodney

    rodney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Floyd vs Oscar wasn’t close at all. Oscar wasn’t landing the jab and couldn’t land a clean shot all nite.