James Figg (1723) vs. Muhammad Ali (1967)

Boxing had zero talent pool, minimal roots in popular culture, negligible funding, and little specialized training when Figg was around. It was a branch of assaults-at-arms and nothing more.

Figg without cudgel: Ali KO 1. Brutal mismatch.

Figg with cudgel: Figg KO 3 (cuts) from singlestick blows. Singlesticks are comparatively thin, and I don't think the wrist cuts would be enough to get Ali immediately. He'd probably be able to keep away from Figg for a little while.

Figg with saber: Figg KO 1 (cuts). This time, the cuts are a lot nastier.

 

Incidentally, Figg's cudgeling would probably look a little like this, except without headgear:

[YT]xowBMTgwAlk[/YT]

 

I dont know enough about the Saber or Cudgel to make a call (what are they?)

Actually i dont know anything about Figg either, now i think about. But still, if he is to be considered to have barely trained, as Cross Trainer suggested and perhaps if this is the case he was no more than an untrained street corner bully? If so, Ali KO1 is almost certain and i would actually go further and suggest KO 1 with Figg out cold before he hits the ground and before Alis last punch lands.

That being so, with (presumably) some type of stick, I would possibly still back Ali KO1. Would this be an LPR fight or does Figg even predate lpr?

 

Figg predates:

* London Prize Ring Rules
* Large-scale noble patronage for boxers
* Sparring gloves
* Boxing as we know it



He may have been in pretty good shape, but he seems to have been among the first to engage in a "sport" where you were restricted to just punching your opponent. The old cliche of a rough-and-tumble match, as far as I can tell, is actually a pretty good description of what Figg did.

According to Egan--who may be wrong--it was Broughton who developed the jab into an effective weapon, and worked out boxing's footwork and a couple punches. Figg's "boxing" would have looked more like this:

http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/Passchen.php

http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/Petter.php

 

Saber: A type of curved sword used mostly for slashing. Favored by cavalry in the 18th century.

Cudgel: Essentially a three foot hardwood dowel with a handguard attached to one end. Figg shattered a guy's kneecap with one of these. Come to think of it, if he's allowed to hit below the belt it could be KO 1.



Basically...

Figg as a boxer: awful fighter
Figg in a streetfight: much scarier
Figg with a weapon: run away

 

Okay then, in that case i am sticking with Ali KO1 for the Cudgel. The sabre has me a little worried. I presume that Ali also gets to take a sabre, so this is not necesserailly the mismatch it seems. Imagine the speed of ali, with a sabre. He would very likely have the speed to land a lead right Sabre slash, like he did on Foreman (without the sabre). I also imagine that if Ali attacked with the sabre, Figg would really struggle to handle the power and even defend it.

How skilled/experienced was Figg with a sabre, and how sharp/long/wide was it. I definitely think I favour Ali in the first round under any rules. Even pistols, when i think about it. Imagine Ali's speed and reflexes in an old fashioned pistol dual.

 

Figg was an expert with a saber and cudgel. Ali would have speed and athleticism on his side, but Figg is far, far beyond Ali's abilities with edged weapons. It's a different sort of game. Even without the weapons, he has an okay shot at wrestling Ali to the ground and punching him there.

Pistols? Well, I don't think Figg would be very skilled in their use either. On the other hand, it isn't as if reflexes help you much there. Accuracy is much more important, as is being a smaller target. There's even a stance for it.

 

I understand you might be bored shitless - we all get that way sometimes - but a waste of thread is a waste of thread no matter what :thumbsup

 

It turned out to be useful in spotlighting boxing's early roots, though. All in all, not a bad thing.

 

I think that the early 1800s represent the point where the top fighters becomes comparable to a modern champion in terms of organisation, training regime, and talent pool dominated.

While I would not put James Figg in the ring with a modern fighter I would be willing to do so with Tom Cribb.

 

I would give my bets to James Figg here. I think people here are underestimating him that much. Boxing in Figg’s time was far different from what Ali is used to. While it was fist to fist, their version of boxing also have wrestling (Figg once took down his rival Sutton by a submission hold), kicking (known as purring, purr-kicking or shin kicking), ground and pound (both with fists and feet), and other nasty stuffs such as eye gouging, spitting, headbutting, nut busting, biting, hair pulling etc. Ali would be wrecked if he goes against a guy with all these arsenals of skills.

Ali has no wrestling feat or any ground game, and he sure as hell sucks at fighting someone who can kick (Antonio Inoki humiliated him). He’ll be suprised and beaten once Figg automatically goes to his eyes and balls. Figg may not be as fast but he was a fencer so he is capable of getting in and out if he needs to. All he needs to do is just one takedown or clinch and Ali will be going home either with a lost eye, ball, ripped nose or even as a corpse. Figg was not a brute though, he was the first scientific boxer in history. “Figg’s Fighting” is a trchnique he invented used by classical pugilist where if one is against a striker, wredtle him to the ground, and if one is against a wrestler, keep distance and poind him with strikes.

Also, NO. Ali would lose to swords and cudgels with Figg. Its stupid to think that he would even have a chance. Figg once bashed a guy’s knee with a cudgel during the start of a martial arts match. Ali aint gonna survive that.

 

On a more serious note, when was the last time a boxer meet a bare knuckle champion?

The last bare knuckle guy to try boxing at least on a higher level that I am aware of was Joe Savage who was billed as an undefeated English bare knuckle guy. In his first pro fight, Savage meet Bert Cooper and was out in round one. Its rather hilarious, I recommend catching this match on you tube. Savage ending his boxing career at 0-1.

 

Yes, he called himself - and was billed as - an undefeated bare knuckle champion ... but in England we have plenty of men like that.
We usually just call them bullshitters.