Is Ken Norton a top 20 ATG Heavyweight?

A ranking of anywhere between 20 and 30 might be reasonable, I think.

 

I always felt kinda bad for Kenny because unlike Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Holmes he didn't have his own era back in the 70's which I believe is from September of 1976-June of 1978. Ken clearly beat Ali in their third fight, and his wins over Bobick, Zanon, and Jimmy Young should have counted as title defenses.
Instead he was given the WBC belt because Leon Spinks wouldn't fight him in March 78 and fought Holmes in a close fight but lost it 3 months later in June.

 

I wouldn't begrudge anyone slipping Kenny into the bottom of the 20.

 

Top30 for sure. Top25 probably. Top20, barely misses out I think. He had the style to beat some greater fighters than him and at the same time to lose to some lesser fighters than him. He did both but the latter more than the former. Not that he wasn't good enough but there were others who either achieved more or have better resumes and were more consistent. He'd beat some of those ranking ahead of him though.

 

Agree the s#*! out of this. Personally I put him in and around a group comprising Walcott, Charles, Schmeling, Baer and Patterson. Just not sure exactly where he fits in.

 

Norton is tricky I mean how many quality wins does he have?

Ali for sure that's one.
Jimmy Young in a razor close fight some feel he lost.
A badly faded Quarry.

His career really hangs on the Ali trilogy. He was destroyed by every big puncher he fought not just losing but being wiped out before the 3rd round.

He gets credit for the fact Ali couldn't figure him out and he fought Holmes close. (Imo Holmes won more clearly than the cards indicated)

There are at least 20 guys who have more quality wins than Norton.

Tough to place him. I have him around 30. I liked his style and the person but I feel the number of good wins on his resume are lacking.

 

I see you moved Mickey Walker way back to 91-100. Kudos, but I still think Walker should not make the top 100.

While I'm not here to rip the time or effort as its generally good, I find the following placements a bit off. I'll start at below #75 with a one liner, who knows, maybe you'll re-evaluate at a future date like you did with Mickey Walker.

#72 Hamas? Lucky to make the top 100
#71 Layne. Way too high. A bad pick I think
#59. Fulton. Bad pick. Even the most hard core Dempsey fans would not place him this high
#57. Kid Norfolk. Not in the top 75, I think
#52. Loughran He's a light heavy, and should not rate in the top 75
#47. Greb. Maybe in the top 75 to 100...
#31 Ray. A bad pick this high. Too many losses. No film. Perhaps a gift win over Charles.
#12. Wills. Shocked. Above Jeffries, Dempsey, Langford and the Klitschko's???
#5 Frazier. I never saw Frazier this high, not even from one of the best historians / writers who absolutely loves him and has al of his films in the very highest quality.


I'd pick many of the guys I rated from 1986-current that you did not mention to beat Hamas to Ray.


Enclosed are my top 15 ranked heavyweights at 20-year intervals. The criteria for the ranking as follows.

1 ) Head to head vs. the field, which is strictly my personal opinion. 40% weighting
2 ) Resume of wins and losses, excluding losses that happened when a fighter was past their prime. 30%
3 ) The distinction of the fighter as champion by beating top contenders in title matches if applicable. 20%
4 ) Historians input, which matters most to fighters, not on film. 10%
I will try to list each fighter only once, placing him closest to his prime years.

1885-1905 Pioneer era: The transitional time between bare knuckles and London Prize-ring rules to Queensberry rules.

1.Jeffries
2.Fitzsimmons
3A. Jackson
3B. Corbett
5. Sullivan
6. Sharkey
7. Slavin
8. Ruhlin
9. Goddard
10. Maher
11. Choynski
12. Hart
13. McCoy
14. O’Brien
15. Root

1906-1925 Black and white filmed era:

1. Dempsey
2. J. Johnson
3. Tunney
4. Langford
5. Wills
6. Jeannette
7. McVey
8. Willard
9. Greb
10. Gibbons
11. Burns
12. Miske
13. Godfrey
14. Norfolk
15. Smith

1926-1945 Great Depression to World War II: An era where war and the great depression in the USA hurt boxing. I have trouble with the bottom of this list, and the depth is rather thin. I also think very few in this timeline would be in the top ten today.

1. Louis
2. Charles
3. Schmeling
4. Walcott
5. M Baer
6. Carnera
7. Godfrey
8. Moore
9. Bivins
10. Schaff
11. Conn
12. Hamas
13. Pastor
14. Farr
15. Loughran

1946-1965 Golden age era:
1. Liston
2. Marciano
3. Patterson
4.Johansson
5. Ray
6. Terrell
7. Machen
8. Folley
9. Williams
10. H. Johnson
11. Valdes
12. D Jones
13. Chuvalo
14. Cooper
15. Harris

1966-1985: TV expansion to Cable and PPV: This era is loaded with talent.

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Foreman
4. Frazier
5. Norton
6. Witherspoon
7. Thomas
8. Quarry
9. Page
10. Coetzee
11. Shavers
12. Lyle
13. Cooney
14. Young
15. Weaver


1986-2000: 12 round era and super heavyweight era. This era had tremendous depth and a lot of talent.

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe
5. Ibeabuchi
6.Byrd
7. Morrer
8. Mercer
9. Douglas
10. Tua
11. Morrison
12. Bruno
13. Tucker
14. Rhaman
15. McCall


2001-( ratings are of 2013 ) 2021 – Eastern European dominance era. While this era is only half over, the nations producing the top talent has shifted. Once the iron curtain in Eastern Europe fell both the amateur and professional ranks have been dominated by Eastern Europeans. Since many of the below fighters careers are over, and future talent in the amateurs will arrive, this list will likely look very different by 2021. Hopefully, we will all be here to debate it!

1A. V Klitschko
1B. W Klitschko
3. Povetkin
4. Chagaev
5. Sanders
6. Ibragimov
7. Haye
8. Brewster
9. Peter
10. Adamek
11. Chambers
12. Valuev
13. Gomez
14. Solis
15. Arreola

***Joshua now at #6 and trending upward, the others move down a spot. From here on it, it seems like 8 of 10 ranked Ring Magazine heavyweight is 6'4" to 6'9" tall, so the next bracket should be named Super Heavyweight dominance. I expect young Hrgovic to rate and possibly Dycho and Usyk.

 

Great minds....


(11 -20 thread)

[url]https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/your-second-10-all-time-heavyweights-11-20.600136/page-3#post-18967957[/url]


Johnson
Dempsey
Holyfield
Patterson
Charles
Walcott
Corbett
Wills
Norton
Vitali K

 

The hate is strong in this one, my son.

 

My mother is dead, thanks for reminding me.

And I'm older than you.

Besides, you couldn't be my son...you're too ugly to have any of my DNA.

 

Lol

 

Not for me personally, but he just about misses out