Did Williams getting shot in the abdomen affect him at all?

I think we all agree Terrell was a better fighter after losing to Williams.

Ernie losing to Bethea before losing to Williams shows the pedigree Terrell had before losing to Williams.

Losing twice to Johnny Gray confirms it.

 

Yes he was about 95% of Terrell and Machen of 1962-63. Which also puts him below LHW champ Harold Johnson who beat Williams and a notch higher than Wayne Bethea since he also beat Terrell within that era.

Machen had already been a top three contender for years and Terrell was waiting to turn a corner and make an impression on the scene.

 

I think that we have to look at the rankings of both fighters, when the fight took place, as we would undoubtedly do today.

This was a face off between two guys currently in the top five, whoever had beaten them a year or two ago.

Frankly, it must have been frustrating for the fans, that this fight ended in a draw!

I am normally quick to jump on a fighter, for lack of wins against ranked opposition, but you are perhaps making me more sympathetic towards Williams here!

Williams was the corner that he turned, albeit by the skin of his teeth!

I have often held Williams up, as a fighter who was overrated in his day, but he was overrated for a reason!

 

You have a point that we need to find out if Williams was improving during this year and a half, five win period between losing to Bethea and losing to Terrell.

I am looking at this year and a half. 5 wins over guys with no real name that Ernie is not exactly knocking to smithereens. Some guy with more defeats than he has wins called “chuck Garrett” took Terrell the ten round distance during this possible “improvement window”.

This was after Garrett had been knocked out by the amusingly named four fight novice John Boner.

Fascinatingly, this was the second time Terrell outpointed chuck. The first time Ernie fought Chuck Garrett was before losing to Bethea. chuck was 2-5 when Ernie was 14-2 yet he took Ernie all the way then too. The second time Ernie was 21-3. Without seeing the film, looking at the record, it’s safe to assume That There was no improvement against the same guy (chuck) since he took Ernie the distance before and after losing to Bethea. But perhaps the rematch was a learning fight?

But maybe chuck was some pre Williams bogey man for Terrell, who knows?

There is also Herb Siler who takes Terrell ten rounds during this five bout learning experience just before losing to Cleveland Williams. How good was This 8 times knocked out Herbert? Well he had been the second opponent for Cassius Clay who knocked him out two years and 12 fights earlier. Siler retired from boxing on a six fight losing run right after losing to Ernie.

I think after losing to Williams I don’t see Terrell going the distance with Herb Siler or Chuck Garrett.

 

You have to look beyond Choklabs view on Williams because it isn't really a Williams issue.

When he says negative posts about Williams you have to understand that what he's really doing is saying "Marciano beats Liston h2h"

I know, I know that's quite a leap, but believe me after the best part of a decade posting here that's exactly what he means.

 

To be honest, Williams gave Terrell all he could handle going from the film we have of it. Both guys wanted to win and were in excellent shape.

 

Very strange post.

Am I making things up or am I using facts for the basis of my view? I’m talking about Williams signature win. I have not mentioned Rocky once on this thread. Nor, have I made a thread about rocky myself.

If you disagree with me fine. If you think something I’m saying here isn’t true or isn’t backed up please correct me. I want to lose the argument and win the truth.

If you know more, I am all ears. I’m fine with being wrong. Just bring me the facts.

 

Come on Choklabs I've seen these posts from you many times before over the years and we know where it stems from.

This is far more to do with Liston than it is to do with Williams.

I know it, you know it.

 

What are we talking about here, Where Terrells best wins start?

I think the record shows that Ernies best wins appear on his record after losing to Williams. This is inarguable. Isn’t it?

Williams was his first good opponent wasn’t he? We can’t know if Terrell would beat fighters like Machen, Folley, Doug Jones and Amos Johnson before losing to Williams do we? Terrell didn’t land fights like that until Williams beat him.

Truth is Terrell could not have been much better than Williams since their rematch was so close.

 

Well you could ask me.

 

How can I prove it? How can you prove it?

Terrell was beating the same kinds of guys before losing to Bethea as he was after losing to Bethea. That is what the record show. What we need after his gentle selection is to see how Terrell gets on with guys better than that after Bethea rather than no better than what he was beating before. Without facing guys better than the ones he already beat like (Chuck Garrett) it’s impossible to say. Williams was introduced at that point as a step up but he beat Terrell. The record shows that all Ernies best wins appear on his record after losing to Williams. This is inarguable. Isn’t it?

The highlights look good. But Machen had been knocking around the top 3 to 5 for some time by then hadn’t he? Machen could have been better in 1957-58 than he was in 63’?