Rocky Marciano v George Foreman

It appears to me 90% of Foremans (admittedly great) win over Frazier is attributed to this absolute certainty as to Marcianos fate against him.

Marciano was not Joe Frazier.

There is no absolute certainty.

 

the irresistable force vs the immovable object, a fight that truly transcends this planet.

 

It’s rather too simplistic isn’t it? Absolute certainty based on Frazier? I don’t doubt at all Foreman would pose Marciano enormous problems. But the bottom line is that it’s another guy at the wrong end of his career.

Perhaps it is being overlooked that When Foreman beat Frazier, joe had already reached the point in his career where he never would win another important fight?

With similar tactics and dimensions an inferior fighter, Ted Gullick, was not dominated so easily as Frazier was. Nor was Scrap Iron Johnson, Peralta, Qawi, Guido Trane who were not dismissed as easily as Frazier was.

 

It's easy to forget that Frazier was a big favourite going into the Forman fight. Most experts fully expected him to win. As it turned out Joe clearly wasn't the same after the FOTC (I just watched him against Stander and it's true imo)
Now, if it had of been the Frazier of the first Ali fight in the ring with Foreman in Jamaica who's to say he wouldn't of beat George? Like I said the consensus was at the time he would! people thought smoking Joe was still at his peak. They were going off him still only being 29 and were blinded by the Ali fight which had, in effect, took a toll on joe.

 

Joe must have had the shortest prime of any fighter!lol

 

I agree. We all know now that Foreman was a great fighter, but nobody really knew then did they? I mean the experts had only what there was to go on with young George, and there just did not seem to be enough of it to make a strong case at that point.

Foreman was a great fighter. There’s no two ways about it. However, what if too much is being stacked on Foreman beating the “great” Joe Frazier? That would explain the Ali defeat, the Ron Lyle fight, the Jimmy Young fight and the subsequent early retirement wouldn’t it?

After all, George wound up losing the title to a veteran Ali who Frazier had already beat! He was beat by the guy his most famous victim had already beat. Shouldn’t this point to some decline in the Frazier that Foreman beat compared to the Frazier that beat Ali?

History seems to have decided Foreman always would have beat Frazier. The subsequent demolition of Ken Norton seemed to compound it. This just seems to be a fixed all time established view. And this is understandable.

But later, Norton was exposed by other Punchers... it seems intresting that history could have followed another line of thought regarding Young George Foreman.

 

So after beating Ali, what important fight did Frazier win against a relevant elite fighter?

 

You think he was better after the FOTC? Interesting.

 

Just weeks earlier Quarry had shown to have slipped in form when unheralded Joe Alexander nearly knocked him out.


“From the youtube replay, what was almost the 'upset of the year' at the Nassau Veteran's Memorial Coliseum occurred near the end of round one, when hard punching Joe Alexander slipped a Quarry left right and counterpunched with a picture perfect left hook that send Quarry to the canvas. Quarry beat the count, and appeared okay, and the round had already ended.

Coming out in round 2, Alexander tried to finish Quarry, whose timing was off and who was swinging wildly. At some point a Quarry right got through and sent Alexander to the canvas. Alexander got up and battled on, but he was still dazed. In the ensuing slugout, Quarry went in for the finish and landed a right left right combination that put Alexander on his back for the full ten count in his own corner.”

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Well it was significant in that Frazier could still beat a guy he already beat before and like you say Quarry had a rating just then too. It’s a safe kind of win isn’t it? And over a guy who had already gone off the rails outside the ring.

In the scheme of things losing twice each to Ali and Foreman, going over old ground with fellow veterans Quarry and Ellis and outpointing joe Bugner was not exactly proving Frazier was the same guy since beating Ali.