Lineal explained by someone who actually knows.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by GlaukosTheHammer, Jan 30, 2018.


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  1. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    Nay, maybe I didn't clarify my point. I'm always screaming lineal you know that, but if Joshua was to make a claim or anyone trying to make a claim for him, I'm saying that he has to beat the WBC champion, that's all. Just a claim.
     
    BlizzyBlizz, Jan 31, 2018
    BlizzyBlizz, Jan 31, 2018
    #46
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  2. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    Wlad beat the number 1 guy at the time while he held the IBF and WBO titles. Chagaev was stripped of his title, but he was seen as the number 1 guy in 2009 after he beat Valuev. Wlad wasn't going to fight his brother so I have no problem establishing Wlad as the lineal champion.
     
    BlizzyBlizz, Jan 31, 2018
    BlizzyBlizz, Jan 31, 2018
    #47
  3. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    But you would not AJ even if he beats Parker because Parker's not Tyson or Wilder?

    Why Wlad over Vitali?

    I'm not asking to be rhetorically passive aggressive, I'm honestly curious of your response.
     
    GlaukosTheHammer, Feb 1, 2018
    GlaukosTheHammer, Feb 1, 2018
    #48
  4. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Yeah, it's semantics in it's glory.

    Still, I'd love to see a 1970s publication that uses the term linear over lineal. Linear. To my knowledge, linear is a rather contemporary term that, again to my knowledge, has never served any other purpose but to muddy up the lineal conversation.

    That said I would hear McGrain's alternative history or meaning if he presented it.
     
    GlaukosTheHammer, Feb 1, 2018
    GlaukosTheHammer, Feb 1, 2018
    #49
  5. pow

    pow Boxing Addict Full Member

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    What are the post Lennox theories and routes? As far as I'm aware the popular opinion is that the Chagaev fight is considered the beginning of Wlads Lineal reign.
     
    pow, Feb 1, 2018
    pow, Feb 1, 2018
    #50
  6. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I could be wrong, had anyone else during Queensberry claimed to be lineal post retirement and/or upon reentry?


    There are no serious gaps in lineal until Wlad because k2 did kind of ruined "the man" mentality. The man is exactly the idea behind lineal, the as opposed to one of the. If Tyson was still retired who would be lineal? There would be no "the man"? There is no public perception or people's choice between Wilder, Joshua, and Parker?

    The idea that there can be a time where there are multiple champions and none of them are the lineal champion is anti-lineal in essence isn't it? Lineal is meant to decide among them not wait on them to work it out for themselves. I understand the Wlad gap, I accept it, but I've always looked at it as special rules for the brothers because their fraternal situation is 100% unique in the full 3k years of history of the division. Never before Wlad was it necessary to wait five years to name a lineal and if that's the new norm then yeah I do have some resistance in accepting it. It no longer serves its most basic purpose, and we have champions with absolutely no reason to not fight each other. One of them must be the lineal heir.

    Who crowned Wlad anyway? Was it Ring or Lennox?

    I'm not bugging you to be a dick, you interested me.
     
    GlaukosTheHammer, Feb 1, 2018
    GlaukosTheHammer, Feb 1, 2018
    #51
  7. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    AJ Parker is not the clear number 1 versus 2 fight. Vitali lost his chance when he lost to Lewis and he couldn't unify the titles after he beat Sanders because he would have had to fight his brother.
     
    BlizzyBlizz, Feb 1, 2018
    BlizzyBlizz, Feb 1, 2018
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Fair enough, but it's the future that will validate any system, not the past.

    Briefly though your OP doesn't seem to deal with the reigns that contradict your method, namely the near universal recognition of Frazier as lineal before he fought Ali (and when he fought Ali) and the recognition by many of Charles as true champion before he fought Louis.

    Both are retrospectively credited with title reigns that began before Louis and Ali legally took up boxing again, not after; those reigns continue unbroken after the return of the respective retirees in their eras. In other words, your system, as I understand it, recognises champions that you do not from 1940 onwards. My failure to engage with the preceding 260 years doesn't alter this.


    I disagree; you have your personal interpretation of that history, and what it means. An opinion, if you will.

    I will give you an opportunity to teach in this case. Could you apply your thinking to these questions please?

    1) Magically, Eder Jofre returns to the ring in a 3 round charity event at the bantamweight poundage. He wins a decision. As he retired the undefeated champion of the world all those years ago and now has a Brazilian licence to legally box, is he lineal champion? What happens to the lineal title reigns off the likes of Olivares that came after his? Finally, if there was current bantamweight lineal champion recognised by boxing, would he cease to be lineal champ or would there be two?

    2) If Fury doesn't return to the ring for another ten years and in the interim a very clear lineal claim is made and defended multiple times, what happens to that claim when Fury returns and becomes champion?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    McGrain, Feb 1, 2018
    McGrain, Feb 1, 2018
    #53
  9. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

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    I would agree that the winner of Joshua Wilder establishes a new lineal HW Champion [in Tyson Fury's absence] - however - establishing that new lineage is *not* contingent on Wilder holding the WBC trinket. If Wilder were to vacate tomorrow - the winner of Joshua Wilder would still establish a new lineal HW Champion [in Tyson Fury's absence]. The WBC's trinkent [or that of any other sanctioning mob] has *nothing* to do with the lineal title...
     
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    #54
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  10. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

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    That opinion would be incorrect.

    Wlad established a new lineage with his win over Povetkin.
     
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    #55
  11. BlizzyBlizz

    BlizzyBlizz Loyal Member Full Member

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    Actually it was when he beat Chagaev.
     
    BlizzyBlizz, Feb 1, 2018
    BlizzyBlizz, Feb 1, 2018
    #56
  12. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

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    LMAO.

    "Near universal recognition"? Please stop.
     
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    #57
  13. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

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    No, it wasn't.

    Wlad vs Chageav was NOT a case of the #1 vs #2 HWs in the world. It.Just.Wasn't.
     
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    Nay_Sayer, Feb 1, 2018
    #58
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    What source would you elect to illustrate the lack of recognition for Ali's claim post his retirement? Or is it Frazier's status that interests you?
     
    McGrain, Feb 1, 2018
    McGrain, Feb 1, 2018
    #59
    BlizzyBlizz likes this.
  15. OpinionOfACasual

    OpinionOfACasual Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    More complexities that confuse the average fan.

    Should just be simple.....

    You got 3 belts in the division?

    Ok, you the man then.
     
    OpinionOfACasual, Feb 1, 2018
    OpinionOfACasual, Feb 1, 2018
    #60
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