Are there any fighters in history you think could beat a prime Roy Jones?

An intentional wrist? Sounds like a bit of a stretch.

Then why were the commentators particularly Kellerman reacting to it like Calzaghe was about to be stopped and was hurt much worse than Hopkins hurt Calzaghe in the first round of their fight? Yeah he was up straight away but certainly was buzzed and did not look clear headed at all. The punch definitely buzzed him, as it should, he was hit hard by the wrist. The wrist had power !

Well Roy fought well is all. I know Lederman had it even after 5 rounds, so 3 rounds to 2 Calzaghe with the 10-8 Round 1 for Jones. And then you had Roy getting in some hard punches in Round 6. That's a pretty close fight halfway through. Can't find the round by round from the official judges, but I don't think it's needed because based on the scores (118-109 x3) it appears that they gave every single round besides Round 1 to Calzaghe which is a little ridiculous. If I recall the media scores had it closer, for example if I recall the British telecast's unofficial scorer gave several rounds (besides Round 1) to Roy.

He sure did land a fantastic uppercut, and that wasn't the only good punch he had that round. He landed 2 other hard straight right hands that landed right on the button earlier in the round, and since he was blocking most of Calzaghe's output and effectively negating most of Calzaghe's offense, arguably he landed the only real significant blows of the round. (and Calzaghe had pretty intentional looking rabbit punches at the beginning of the round) There were not many clean punches landed by Calzaghe in that round, mostly just stay busy punches. Roy found some openings there with the right hand, rounds 2 and 6 were pretty much toss-ups that judges were obviously giving to Calzaghe based on work rate. I think it was pretty clear that Calzaghe was going to win, but I think the wideness of those cards giving Calzaghe all 11 rounds after the 1st was pretty embarrassing in my opinion. I mean I don't expect Roy to all the close rounds, but some combination of rounds 2,6,9(if I recall, going from memory), 11, 12, etc would have been more reasonable.

Right but Calzaghe's cut wasn't nearly as bad as Jones cut. Calzaghe did outland / outwork Jones but Jones was landing the flashier higher quality punches, he just didn't land enough of them to impress the judges.

In Jones Tarver 3, aside from rounds 3-5 when Jones came on, the rest of the rounds were pretty one-sided in favor of Tarver and Roy was extremely cautious. In totality, over the course of the 12 rounds I thought Roy was more impressive vs Calzaghe than he was in Tarver 3, aside from those select rounds that he dazzled in Tarver 3.

Yeah I'm still puzzled at how those judges gave every single round after the 1st to Calzaghe. I don't think Roy did enough to win, but that was a relatively close fight and Jones landed some good punches and deserved more credit as I thought he did enough to edge several of the rounds not by outlanding Calzaghe but by blocking most of Calzaghe's punching and landing the far more impressive quality punches.

 

This is my first post on this site - as a matter of fact, I signed up specifically for this thread. I really got into boxing at about the time Jones was staking his claim to greatness. I no longer watch boxing due to all of the political bullish!t but I loved the sport when I did follow it and Jones was a big part it. So here’s my take on Jones:
The Good
IMO, there’s never been fighter like him, before or since. From the ‘88 olympics thru his fight with Ruiz he was simply phenomenal - almost literally untouchable. This is a man who probably didn’t even lose 12 full rounds in that period of time. It’s easy to understand how modern fans could speculate that he might be our Sugar Ray Robinson, or at least Sugar Ray Leonard. I’m not going to take into consideration his time at middleweight seeing as how it was brief and he was still growing. There’s no real point in speculating how he would’ve fared against SRR, Monzon or Hagler. He simply wasn’t there long enough. Not to mention that I don’t believe we can compare the old timers to the new- the old timers fought 15 round fights, had same day weigh ins and fought more often.
However, from 168 up thru Ruiz we can speculate plenty about just how great he seemed. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that he could still have made 168 thru heavyweight- there’s only a handful of names that would’ve been intriguing; Eubank, Calzaghe, rematches with Hopkins and Toney, Dariusz M., Jirov, Holyfield and Byrd. I’m convinced that the Jones who broke Hill’s rib and toyed with Ruiz would’ve beaten all of them. Hell, you could even throw in Rahman’s name, too. Granted, he didn’t fight them so we can never no for sure but it’s more than reasonable to think that he could’ve. Think about that - from 168 to heavyweight only one man would’ve been favored to beat him and that was Lennox Lewis, a 6’6”, 245lb hall of famer with a ramrod jab and sledgehammer cross. And even Manny Steward said that that’d be a much more difficult fight for Lennox than people think. I can’t think of any other fighter in history with that type of qualification. Maybe Harry Greb or Mickey Walker, but those types of guys are hard to gauge due to lack of clear footage. They exist more so in the realm of mythic legends.
The Bad
Roy set the blueprint (that later mayweather would perfect) for being content and not really caring about what the fans wanted. Remember the “Roycott” and “just fight someone” period? He never left the states to fight overseas and he seemed just fine fighting overmatched alphabet mandatories. The truly great fighters of the past just oozed competitive blood lust. You got the impression that they would never rest until they proved themselves to be the absolute best. Think of young Clay going after Liston, Billy Conn challenging Joe Louis, Duran calling out Leonard, Leonard seeking an immediate rematch, Ali going after Foreman when his friends were pleading with him not to for fear of his life, Hearns and Hagler, Frazier and Ali - the list goes on. These men demanded the opportunity to prove themselves against the greatest challenges there were.
Jones never really seemed to have that fire. Just imagine if he had gone to Germany and beat Darius, or dominated Hopkins or Toney in rematches. His legacy would be much greater now. He receives a lot of credit for being a middleweight who “capturesd a portion of the heavyweight crown” but that’s bullish!t - like Mike Tyson said, one president, one pope, one heavyweight champion - and the champ was Lewis. Ruiz was an awkward plodding mauler that Jones would’ve dominated even if John weighed 300lbs. He was tailor made for Jones and Roy knew it. The other guys of his era were probably just as much, if not more, to blame than Roy but none of them had the aura of greatness that Jones had, either. Duran and Ali would’ve taunted them mercilessly until they accepted the fights. Jones appeared to be content with fanfare and statistical greatness rather than blood and guts greatness in the ring.
The Ugly
The legend of Roy Jones jr came to a cashing end in the 2nd round from a Hail Mary haymaker, thrown by a man with his eyes closed whom Jones had already beaten. People always point out that Jones got weak from dropping 25lbs of muscle back down to 175 but they leave off the inconvenient fact that Jones had already beaten Tarver in his first fight back from heavyweight! Like Jones himself said after the fight, “It’s like Superman had his cape yanked off.” After the Tarver rematch came the Johnson fight. Roy was battered from pillar to post by a rugged journeyman and brutally stopped. These fights were difficult to process and comprehend. It was like a Greek tragedy where you see the great Achilles defeated by the ***** Paris - it’s just not right. Look, I know that we’re not supposed to judge a fighter’s career by their end - nobody considers Louis/Marciano, Ali/Holmes/Berbick, Tyson/McBride, Hopkins/Smith as indicative of their greatness, but what really did it for me with Jones was his rubber match with Tarver, rematch with Hopkins and fight with Calzaghe; he fought like he was trying to not get hurt, not to win. The ko by Tarver seemed to reveal that he wasn’t a fighter at heart- once he no longer dominated opponents with supernatural speed and reflexes and great conditioning he was lost. Can you think of any other all time greats who were dethroned so ignominiously by two men who would turn out be mediocre fighters (Tarver and Johnson). When the past greats lost, they lost to men who would show themselves to be great as well. Marciano, Holmes, even Ricky Hatton had a good run after retiring Tszyu. Once Jones was done, he was done.
I know the weight loss affected him but it also, I think, revealed something that his reflexes kept hidden for years- he simply didn’t have the heart for combat. With that in mind it’s hard to not think that Charles, Moore, Moore’s, Spinks, Conn, Walcott, Tunney wouldn’t have figured him out and beat him. Hell, I can just picture the Camden Buzzsaw digging deep into that ass until Jones fell or the final bell rang.
So, to end where I began several hours ago (lol), Jones is in a class of his own for all of the right and wrong reasons. Untouchable and awe inspiring in victory and tragic and human in defeat.

 

Jackstraw,

Part 1

Welcome to the forum.

He didn't stay at MW long, but when looking at any fantasy fights at the weight, I always look at the version who fought Thomas Tate. He was matured at 25, and he fought Toney about 6 months later. The names you listed at SMW would have been intriguing, as well as the likes of Benn and Liles.

Roy wasn't content to just fight low level opponents and mandatories.

It's a myth.

The "Roycott" was grossly unfair, and it was a small section of frustrated fans who didn't realise what was happening behind the scenes at the time. Of course, it was perfectly understandable to see why they were so frustrated. They obviously wanted to see the best fighter in the world fight the best opponents. But HBO tried all they could to secure the fight against Dariusz in the U.S. on the back of repeated claims by Dariusz, that he was willing to fight Roy in the U.S. Yet Dariusz and his team weren't interested.

A lot of people criticise Roy for not having gone to Germany, but I'm not one of them. He was scarred from the 88 Olympics in Seoul, he'd seen Dariusz pathetically feign injury in order to get Graciano Rocchigianni disqualified in their first fight, and Germany was notorious for bad decisions, as per some of Sven Ottke's fights. So I don't blame him for not wanting to have taken all 3 of the main belts over.

Roy did pursue the biggest fights. And when they couldn't be made, he always looked for other challenges. When he couldn't fight Benn or Liles at SMW, he moved up to LHW. And when he couldn't secure fights against Dariusz or Hopkins, he moved up to HW.

Regarding the past great's like Ray Leonard seeking a rematch with Duran, that's because he lost a close fight.

Roy didn't push for rematches against the likes of Toney, because he'd easily beaten him. He didn't feel as though he'd got anything to prove. But you saw how hard he chased the Griffin rematch. He demanded that rematch no matter what it meant financially. You saw what mindset he was in. We'd never seen that before. It just needed the right set of circumstances for it to be revealed. But he proved that he did have fire within him.

He didn't have the opportunity to try and dominate Hopkins in a rematch, because Hopkins turned down $6m and a comeback fight on HBO, and demanded $10m or no fight.

The Ruiz win was boring. Because it was a guy with an ugly style, who couldn't match Roy's speed. There was no action. But that's where Roy basically gets penalised for being too good. Because if he'd have been hurt, cut, or he'd have had to have gotten off the canvas to have won in an entertaining fight like Toney-Jirov, then he'd have received a ton of credit. Sure, Ruiz wasn't great. Far from it. But he was tough, and he was a top 10 HW of the era. He would also be a top 10 HW today. It was impressive how Roy completely shut him out at 34, fighting a guy much bigger than himself.

 

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Jackstraw,

Part 2

Regarding his defeats to Tarver and Johnson, hindsight tells us that Roy should either have retired early, or he should have adapted his style to compensate for his age. But he obviously didn't do that and he paid the price. Yes, he boxed cautiously against Tarver in their 3rd fight, and against Calzaghe and Hopkins. But that was to be expected after what had happened. The wheels fell off of the waggon hard and fast. But there's a few former greats of the past who lost to fighters of the calibre of Tarver and Johnson, even before they got to the stage where Roy got to.

I don't know how you can say he didn't/doesn't have heart for combat. Why do you think he's fighting next week? He's not doing it just to get paid. He's showed plenty of heart throughout his career. He fought Hopkins with an injured hand. He then moved up for Toney. He then moved up to his 3rd weight class. He showed tremendous heart when he had to dig deep to beat Tarver in their first fight. He had to come through adversity. That's my favourite win of his. He rushed that weight off in about 2 months, and he was absolutely exhausted after the half way point. His tank was empty in those last 3 rounds. What about his fight against Glen Johnson? Tarver brought his world crashing down in May of 2004, yet he immediately signed to fight Glen afterwards for a fight in September. He then fought Tarver a 3rd time, coming off of 2 heavy losses and a year of inactivity. He then fought 2 P4P fighters in Calzaghe and Hopkins. Then in 2011, he went to Russia to fight Dennis Lebdev, despite the fact that he was 42, he hadn't fought for over a year due to an operation on his knee, and he was only 50% of the fighter he'd once been. He went to try and get himself in line for a CW title. What other 42 year old faded fighter would travel to Russia to face a dangerous southpaw like Lebedev at that stage of their career? That is the very definition of having heart and determination. Even after Enzo Mac knocked him out, he still continued. Roy has plenty of heart, which is why he's still fighting at 49 years of age.

Regarding the great LHW's you've listed, they all could have beaten Roy. Because they were all amazing fighters. But I don't how you can say they'd have figured him out due to a lack of heart. Roy's one of the most intelligent fighters there's been. If he'd have signed to have fought those guys, then I know that he'd have have been extremely motivated and on his A-game, due to the amount of respect he'd have had for them.

Nice debating with you. I'll look forward to reading your response.

 

Good stuff Jackstraw and welcome. You make some interesting points, reading your comment about Jones vs Lewis made me think about how Roy's trajectory could have ended up had he stayed up at HW and fought Lewis following Ruiz rather than weakening himself by going back down to LHW to take on Tarver.

Had he stayed up at HW and ended his career there, who knows how his career as a whole would be viewed today. Jones vs Lewis would have been massive in 2003 and Lewis went on to retire instead of going on for one more fight and ending his career with a huge payday. I think Jones vs Lewis would have been very hard to predict the outcome but would have been a joy to watch.

Although Roy talks about doing what Bob Fitzsimmons did, the fact of the matter is that going back down to LHW the way he did was a mistake. Had he stayed at HW he could have ended his career there. He really had nothing to prove at LHW. If a top LHW wanted to fight him, surely it could have been made north of 175 without Roy having to lose weight unhealthily like he did.

I agree mostly about what you said about the rubber match with Tarver, he was still very cautious with the exception of rounds 3-5 and still wasn't right. But I thought he got his confidence back in 2006 and 2007 and fought well enough vs Calzaghe to gain back some respect. I don't think it's fair to say that he wasn't fighting to win vs Calzaghe, though certainly he was covering up a lot so you can certainly make that argument.

However by the time his rematch with Hopkins came about in 2010, this was probably the best version of Jones in the last 10-12 years (since the losses to Tarver / Johnson) and I came away from that fight impressed with how well he handled Hopkins. Jones was never hurt by Hopkins and the speed and athleticism from Jones was on full display there. I think Jones performance in the Hopkins rematch is highly underrated and I disagree with the judging and popular perception of that fight. I've watched that bout several times and am more impressed with how Jones fought that fight every time. Even Hopkins in the post fight admitted how good the fight was and how Roy still has that speed. Hopkins went down 3 times in the Jones rematch each on borderline fouls that arguably could have been 3 knockdowns of Hopkins. And guess who was the referee for that ? You guessed it, the highly criticized Tony Weeks. Weeks gave Hopkins every benefit of the doubt on those could-be knockdowns of Hopkins giving Hops 5 minutes each time after all the Hopkins histrionics, even deducting a point from Jones at one point. So I don't agree with your assessment at all when it comes to the Hopkins rematch. Believe it or not, Jones was a much better more confident fighter that night than he was 5 years earlier in the Tarver rubber match.

 

Loudon, thanks for the welcome and well thought out replies. The reason that I replied to you originally wasn’t actually to debate but rather because you’re one of, if not the best poster, in this thread. I can’t compete with your knowledge regarding the behind the scenes machinations of the circumstances as to why certain fights with Jones didn’t get made so it’s great to read your responses. I’m not sure how to isolate sections of your comments so I’m just going to try to do my best;
Regarding Jones not having a heart for combat, that’s my take and I could very well be wrong. Also, I really don’t want take away from his incredible accomplishments, even though the words I used might seem otherwise. Here’s what I meant- Roy never really had to dig deep in his career. I mean Leonard in the 14th round of Hearns deep. Or Ali vs Foreman in the jungle deep. He was simply so much better than everybody else that he didn’t have to. Or if he did he never showed it. The one exception was the first Tarver fight, of course. And even that wasn’t on the seat of your pants come from behind. So when the Tarver rematch came...he was simply done. Over. Finito. I remember watching that fight just dumbstruck- like round 10 of Corrales / Castillo , thinking what did I just witness? And I was almost equally dumbstruck when Johnson finally landed that right to his head, after having owned him all night. The way his head bounced off the canvas and me praying, please Lord don’t let him be dead or brain damaged. The other all time greats had been to hell and back and when they finally lost it was to guys who themselves would go on to be great. I’m thinking Ali / Holmes, pacquioa / Barrera or even Tszyu/ Hatton. Of course there are exceptions, but you get the point. In the case of Jones, Tarver and Johnson, while not bums, didn’t really go on to greatness. Jones dominated nearly every round of every fight until the first Tarver fight and then suddenly he was done. Compared to the old greats like Leonard, Ali, Duran, Hearns, even Morales they defied the odds at some point, showed flashes of their former greatness against guys they shouldn’t have, proving the old saying that, every great fighter has one great fight left in him. Jones seemed to be one of the greatest athletes ever who happen to be forced into boxing and he became one of the greatest boxers ever. But once the supernatural athleticism was gone so was Jones. There’s was no caginess, or old veterans tactics- it was just simply a matter if he could survive.
As far as him continuing to fight now? It’s all the man knows. It’s his identity. From a 10 year old boy forced into combat by a drill seargent father, boxing is all he has.
Thanks again for thoughtful replies and by all means keep them coming! I actually agree with you more than what my own replies indicate.

 

Monzon for sure. Several names could be listed at LHW that aren't laughable at all.

 

max schmelling to vitali klitschko after he won 'a belt'..."if you want to be a real champion, you need to go to America"
jones and Hopkins are internationally lauded as the best fighters of their generation - Calzaghe, ottke, DM, sturm and eubank are not
how about we look at the fighters in their prime that amir khan and ricky hatton got when they left warren and crossed the pond, and the fights Calzaghe didn't get against prime fighters by staying with him...

this isn't rocket science or even close
it just burns you that Calzaghe's best win against a fighter in their prime during his entire career was mikkel Kessler - and you don't want to acknowledge that it was his own fault

 

Manny "Pacman" Pacquiao (2008-2009).

 

So what ever Schmelling says but be correct?
That is just either an opinion or something said. Unless you put up the full content or conversation it means nothing.
The champ is who wins the title/who beats the man or generally beats the best. That doesnt matter where that is based

By who?
Hopkins did become the top MW. No question. He also decided against facing Calzaghe years previously when Calzaghe agreed to go to America and face him.
With Jones he was not the man at LHW. He was a belt holder. Michalczewski beat Hill to become the champ and with that became WBA IBF WBO LHW champ. Jones just won the belts Dariusz relinquished. Dariusz also beat Rocchigiani who had the WBC title taken from him, so Michalczewski had claim to all of the titles Jones won.
Jones didnt face the man at LHW.
Dont get upset with me. Its just a part of boxing history

Are you saying they werent in control of their careers?
Hatton fought the top man of the division he was fighting in, in Tsyzu. After that fought a unification
Khan got beat when with Frank but was still able to get a title shot later
Not sure what you are trying to get at?
You are trailing off subject. We are talking about being champ in a division and Khan fighting at MW is off subject completely. He has gone up and down weights
We are talking man of the division and R Jones
Was Jones ever the man at MW, SMW or LHW. I think he was a good fighter but he didnt face a MW champ, didnt face the top 3 SMWs and didnt face the man at LHW
Once again Dont get upset with me. Its just a part of boxing history

Why would that opinion burn me?
Its one of Wards best wins when Kessler was faded, with eye problems and already beaten by a faded old Calzaghe.
I do agree that undefeated prime Kessler was one of Calzaghes top 5 wins. Good win beating the prime, undefeated, unified champ version of Kessler in his final fight at SMW


Oh and I notice you have still ducked my original question (several times now) and tried to pretend it wasnt asked, so lets go again...

You still havent listed all these SMWs Calzaghe should have gone to America to face when he was champ defending? I bet you wont either. You keep making a comment that you cant back up in any way.

 

Are you suggesting Collins ran Roy out of the SMW division???
As with Ottke. the Phantom beat Tarver and G Johnson who both beat Roy. Form line

 

So you agree Roy didnt face any LHWs better than Tarver or G Johnson, so how can you make such wild judgments? Many fighters look good against fighters they can beat but not as good when in against tougher comp

 

Thats a long post and Im not going to break it down as time is a bit short.
We will have to agree to disagree.
After watching Woods back up Jones and Griffin, I could see Calzaghe backing him up and unloading and (prime) Calzaghe stopping Jones midway to late