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Ruben Olivares - As great as Monzon?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Russell, Feb 6, 2018.

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red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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Russell said: ↑

Great stuff. Thanks RC! How ya' been lately!
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Ok, I guess...hope things have been good for you...and again, you're crankin' out some fine threads.

red cobra, Feb 6, 2018

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JC40 Boxing fan since 1972 banned Full Member

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I just wish we had more threads like this one instead of all the dream fights, especially at heavyweight.

Its very really enjoyable reading your posts Red Cobra and Mr ScarTissue.

Funnily enough even though it only went four rounds Monzon vs Napoles was a bit like Olivares vs Arguello in the way Napoles was able to land so many jabs on King Carlos despite the reach advantage.

Monzon as usual though fought exactly the right fight strategically and used his size n strength to bully and then stop the great Cuban.

Have a great one fellas.

JC40, Feb 6, 2018

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scartissue said: ↑

Sorry, I should have mentioned that that scorecard was my opinion only.
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and a scorecard I completely agree with.

JC40, Feb 6, 2018

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red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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scartissue said: ↑

Ruben Olivares vs. Alexis Arguello through 12 completed rounds, California scoring of one point for a winning round and none for an even round.

Round 1: Even
Round 2: Arguello
Round 3: Olivares
Round 4: Olivares
Round 5: Arguello
Round 6: Even
Round 7: Olivares
Round 8: Olivares
Round 9: Olivares
Round 10: Olivares
Round 11: Olivares
Round 12: Olivares
Round 13: KO for Arguello

Total: 8-2 Olivares through 12 completed rounds. Remember, Olivares was all of 5'5" and Arguello was 5'10" and there were at least two rounds there where I would actually say that Olivares was kicking the crap out of AA. I've always said Olivares was a true great at bantam but was underrated at 126. Of course, as Russell mentioned, it was the cantinas and the skirts that was Olivares' downfall.
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Hi scartissue! Thanks for this...Rockabye Ruben didn't do too bad against the great AA,...until he got bombed.

red cobra, Feb 6, 2018

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red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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JC40 said: ↑

and a scorecard I completely agree with.
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Me too!

red cobra, Feb 6, 2018

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red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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JC40 said: ↑

I just wish we had more threads like this one instead of all the dream fights, especially at heavyweight.

Its very really enjoyable reading your posts Red Cobra and Mr ScarTissue.

Funnily enough even though it only went four rounds Monzon vs Napoles was a bit like Olivares vs Arguello in the way Napoles was able to land so many jabs on King Carlos despite the reach advantage.

Monzon as usual though fought exactly the right fight strategically and used his size n strength to bully and then stop the great Cuban.

Have a great one fellas.
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Thank you sir! Great post!

red cobra, Feb 6, 2018

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Longhhorn71 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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The Jr. Featherwt Division didn't exist at the time Olivares would have moved up to, and probably dominated for several more title fights. (See Wilfredo Gomez' later reign).

Longhhorn71, Feb 6, 2018

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red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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JC40 said: ↑

I just wish we had more threads like this one instead of all the dream fights, especially at heavyweight.

Its very really enjoyable reading your posts Red Cobra and Mr ScarTissue.

Funnily enough even though it only went four rounds Monzon vs Napoles was a bit like Olivares vs Arguello in the way Napoles was able to land so many jabs on King Carlos despite the reach advantage.

Monzon as usual though fought exactly the right fight strategically and used his size n strength to bully and then stop the great Cuban.

Have a great one fellas.
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Yes..exactly,...I get so tired of threads about heavyweights...top ten lists of any kind,...and any mention of the putzes that are today's boxers, especially Mayweather, Joshua and whatshisname Wilder.

red cobra, Feb 6, 2018

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Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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A serious case can be made for Rockabye Ruben to be considered the greatest bantamweight ever.

Clinton, Feb 6, 2018

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Clinton said: ↑

A serious case can be made for Rockabye Ruben to be considered the greatest bantamweight ever.
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Preach it! Why do you personally hold Olivares in such high regard?

Russell, Feb 6, 2018

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Russell said: ↑

Preach it! Why do you personally hold Olivares in such high regard?
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His body of work is unbelievable. His punching power was bone crunching. He absolutely ****ing DESTROYED another fighter that I love in the very tough Bobby Chacon (8 pounds above Ruben's best weight), who was a great featherweight in his own right. Hes one of the old school fight anywhere all the time types. Plus he was an atg partier. That on his own would make him one of my favs. He and Eder should be considered the greatest 118 pounders ever.

Clinton, Feb 6, 2018

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Russell said: ↑

The more I learn about the career of Olivares the more impressed I am with the man and his accomplishments. He was the boxing equivalent of James Dean, living fast, hard and just about dying in the ring late in his career to complete the comparison between the two.

I've seen some of his very last bouts (And filled in the boxrec pages with information regarding a few of them if anyone cares for more info without digging the fights up) and he fought until he was beyond shot and could no longer even take a solitary decent punch. Similar to other greats who've continued on, like Roy Jones Jr, these once universally revered and great careers are dragged through the mud for years, resumes accumulating embarrassing losses. Some fight fans will say these post prime losses where the fighter in question was a shell of his former self don't muddy the water, but it inevitably takes some of the lust off the fighter as a whole. It's simply how it is. Getting out of the sport at the right time before your record is diluted in the eyes of the casual observer is way to be deemed indisputably great. Think Monzon's 87-3, JCC's 107-6, Hagler's 62-3, Rocky Marciano vaunted 49-0.

Olivares in his prime was undoubtedly a great fighter, as destructive an offensive machine as I have ever seen at the lower weight classes, with great punch accuracy, one of the greatest left hooks to the body of all time and respectable guile and skill. In more than one publication I've seen Olivares referred to as once being the premiere, all time most revered greatest fighter out of Mexico... A title that people later on in all their hoopla and promotion ended up seemingly moving that title onto Julio Cesar Chavez (Which I completely disagree with)

Olivares challenged himself in several matches where he was at a severe disadvantage from the get go. While plenty of JCC's career included plenty of record padding, and once he made his own move up in weight made sure to not match him against anyone who would be particularly dangerous to him. Olivares made the old school jump between the bantamweight and featherweight class, to meet one of the rangiest and biggest featherweights you can think of in the great Alexis Arguello.

Now Arguello is a fighter that is almost dead even with Chavez in terms of perceived greatness and accomplishments on this forum... So what does it say about Olivares that he moved up multiple weight classes to take on such a stylistic nightmare to himself while he was well past his prime and to be leading in the fight before being caught late?

If Chavez were to take on a similar challenge, it would have been along the lines of matching up against a young Ike Quartey, or Vince Phillips, fighters who would have large reach and size advantages over Chavez, with exceptional physical tools to boot. Basically, nightmare style match ups for an aging Chavez, a suicide match. Olivares did something exactly as mad as that, and he almost won!

Obviously Olivares was a fighter who burned brightly for a relatively short period of time, and Monzon was far more consistent. But I feel like I can tell greatness when I see it, and my question to end the thread on is this... Is it unrealistic to think Ruben Olivares is as great a fighter as the likes of Carlos Monzon, one of the consensus top middleweights of all time?
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This is a ****ing superb thread!! Thank you kind sir!

Clinton, Feb 6, 2018

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Hey fellas, I was just having a think about another great Mexican lower weight fighter from that era, Vincente Saldivar.

Any opinions on who would win a prime battle between Olivares n Saldivar ?

I would actually favour Ruben as he has a lot of speed on Saldivar.

Cheers Guys.

JC40, Feb 6, 2018

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Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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JC40 said: ↑

Hey fellas, I was just having a think about another great Mexican lower weight fighter from that era, Vincente Saldivar.

Any opinions on who would win a prime battle between Olivares n Saldivar ?

I would actually favour Ruben as he has a lot of speed on Saldivar.

Cheers Guys.
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Someone I need to learn more about, to be honest with everyone.

Russell, Feb 6, 2018

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red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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JC40 said: ↑

Hey fellas, I was just having a think about another great Mexican lower weight fighter from that era, Vincente Saldivar.

Any opinions on who would win a prime battle between Olivares n Saldivar ?

I would actually favour Ruben as he has a lot of speed on Saldivar.

Cheers Guys.
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One hell of a great prospective battle...got to think about this one...right now I'm leaning towards the Marcianoesque Saldivar.....but I'm not sure.

red cobra, Feb 6, 2018

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