If Leonard had boxed Duran in the first ft like he did the rematch , what's the result?

Leonard says a lot of goofy stuff that doesn't really hold up to film or logic.

Leonard absolutely did fight flat-footed in this fight, and intentionally so. The fact that he used some lateral movement doesn't contradict or even undermine that. As I've shown in other threads, if you compare this fight to other Leonard fights against top aggressive opponents, Leonard doesn't try nearly as hard to control distance and spends a lot less time dancing around on his toes.

 

Wrong again bud. Watch SRL in the first round... then watch him in later rounds... 8-13... He's again trying to circle and box like he always does. That is exactly what he's trying to do. It would CONTINUE to look very similar to how he usually fights, but DURAN wouldn't allow him to simply fight that type of fight. You seem to think there are different things being said, when in fact, they are the perfectly aligned with one another. You are the one whos theory is grossly off-base. You seem to believe he typically fought like Duran 2 more so than Duran 1, and that couldn't be further from the truth. That is the difference here. He tried to fight like he typically does, just to likely stand his ground a little more than usual, but Duran wasn't having any of the typical from SRL.

 

You've never illustrated any such thing. You posted videos of people you "claim" to be strong foes which SRL would be cautious with.. and NONE of the videos prove your point. They fail because those foes fought NOTHING like Duran. They weren't feinting like Duran does throughout the fight throwing off his rhythm. None of them hurt him like Duran did to change the complexion of the fight. None of the fighters you listed were as aggressive as Duran was that night, sometimes charging in with no regard. I believe "charging of the light brigade" was mentioned. None of those fights you listed were they as aggressive as Duran was. Lastly, and MOST importantly, the guys you mention, the guys you claim SRL fought VASTLY different, those fighters were 1/20th the fighters Duran was. So of course it's going to look a little different. What's worse, even in those videos, SRL is still circling and moving around like he was with Duran in round 1. Difference is, he's allowed to continue to do that, Duran didn't allow that. Then later SRL gets a little rhythm, and again is moving around like that in spots trying to fight mostly like normal. It starts to work better as Duran slows down some in the later rounds, but it wasn't enough. It's amusing to me that you feel like Duran 2 is how SRL typically fought, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

https://streamable.com/k0a0

Contrasted with:

https://streamable.com/9f58 (Hearns)
https://streamable.com/325p (Duran II)
https://streamable.com/uzi1 (Hagler)
https://streamable.com/dcor (Green)
https://streamable.com/2vbr (Geraldo)
https://streamable.com/araq (Mando Muniz)
https://streamable.com/spn4 (Gonzalez)

 

The isolated clips again, that don't prove your point. Exactly as I said, NONE of those fighters were applying the educated pressure Duran was. No point in even listing Duran 2, since, Duran would be the smaller guy there. Not the narrative you put forth of, when he fought big strong guys, he would move more. Duran wasn't bigger than SRL, that that is null and void. Hearns wasn't aggressive with SRL at all. He wasn't pressuring him or rushing him as Duran did. Hearns was content to LET SRL circle and box like he normally does because he could beat him at that game. You literally put forth a video where SRL HAD to be aggressive and pressure in order to win. Hardly convincing evidence.

The rest of the guys you named, didn't apply that same kind of pressure. Did you even watch these fights? I'm honestly starting to think you haven't. Are you honestly trying to say these men fought the same way Duran did? Look at Green and look at Geraldo for Christ's sake, they are fighting NOTHING like Duran. They aren't even trying to rush SRL. They are content to let SRL circle and box and dart in and out. They weren't rushing SRL as much as you're claiming, and when they did, it wasn't the way Duran was. To say nothing of the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, these fighters aren't 1/20th the fighters Duran was, nor could they do what he could do. So of course it would look different, but that different doesn't prove the point you're trying to say it does.

Look at round 1 versus Duran... He's on his toes a foes times, he's moving in and out of danger when Duran rushes, but most of the time he's content to CIRCLE, Jab, box, move out and come back into range. That was almost exactly how he was fighting in the isolated frames you posted. That is how he fought round 1 and most of round 2, UNTIL what happened Kev? It's very clear to anybody, SRL intended to stand his ground more, but wasn't standing flat-footed as you claim he was all fight. He was circling and boxing when he could and Duran allowed it. He was standing his ground more at times because that was THEIR plan... it wasn't what you put forth of... Ohhh I just wanted to beat Duran at his own game, and since I fought that way I lost.... That is the narrative you're trying to peddle.

 

Leonard said it more than once. But - hey - the words of the man himself might be doubted, if there is other evidence to show that he'd simply used poor judgement in Montreal, instead.

I haven't stated that Leonard did not fight flat-footed so, I'm not sure what it is you think I am trying to contradict or undermine. I merely pointed out that he did attempt movement and control of distance but Duran was too quick over ground for that distance to be maintained.

I'm more than happy to look at the comparative examples of Leonard fights that you think demonstrate his being on his toes, against top, aggressive opponents. Please suggest a few and I will definitely look at them and feed back.

Mind you, I can't think of any he fought, who matched the ferocity of Duran.

 

Thats the hook. Leonard had an all-time great chin especially in his prime. Great punch

 

Hi Kev, mate if you have done much sparring ( I did a fair bit as a young guy, my uncle was a pro fighter ) you would realise that it takes a fighter rounds to recover from being badly hurt. I remember the first time I got buzzed in sparring, I actually felt sick in the guts all day.

I will give you another example off the top of my head. Froch vs Groves 1. Groves hurt Carl so badlly in that fight that it took Froch a good 5 rounds to start to get his act together properly n get outta the fog. When you get concussed but not floored it can really play havoc with your legs n balance as well.

As some other posters have said too, the fight was outdoors in the rain ( which always favours the swarmer vs a boxer ) and if you watch most of Leonard's career fights he only fought on the bike a few times. Duran 2 and 3 were anomalies.

I didnt see Ray stick and move like he did against Duran when he faced Benitez, Hearns, Boy Green, Andy Price etc, etc, etc. He did use in and out movement and some circling when out of range but he didnt fight that disciplined " stick n move , no mixing it up style " against most people he fought. Against Hearns he did circle outta range on his toes for rounds at a time but he also mixed it up and eventually started to fight coming forward, chasing Tommy down.

As others have said Dundee and Leonard actually believed that Ray was bigger, faster and hit harder than Duran so they went into the fight with the intention of using a boxer-fighter style, not a pure stick n move style.

Cheers Matey.

 

Yep thats the hook that turned Ray's legs to spaghetti.

Duran was SO fit, so aggressive and so determined in Montreal.his foot and hand speed were excellent and the speed of body movement he showed was exceptional.

He never approached that level again.

In some ways it was like say watching Ali vs Terrell and Williams, Robinson vs La Motta in their last fight or Louis vs Schmeling. An all time great at his absolute best.

 

No doubt, but that doesn't match the action as I recall it from the video. Leonard certainly held more after getting stung by that punch but he was still using lateral movement, moving and punching sharply (though visibly gun-shy at times), and showing strength and balance by the end of the round. Looked more or less just like he had for much of the first part of the round, as did he when he came out for round 3.

And just an aside but while I realize that Duran apparently morphed into some once-in-a-lifetime juggernaut in Montreal, regular Duran really didn't have extraordinary punching power at 147.

It depends where/how you draw the line between "in and out movement and some circling" vs. "stick n move." I thought that Duran did both in the fights that I've posted links from, though he played it safer in some of those fights than others, depending on the dangerousness of his opponent and his success at fighting from range.

Absolutely. I've made that point here many times.

 

Looks like Duran beat the fight out of him.

 

As far as Leonard fighting in a fog or on insinct a fee being hurt badly that is quite normal. Joe Louis said the same thing during his first sight with Max Schemling. He got hurt in round 4 and didn't remember the rest of the fight. Tyson too against Holyfield. Leonard getting his bearings in the 5th shows outstanding recovery

 

I don't know I am sure he could have moved more with the rain boxing shoes were rubber soled by then but too much is being taken away from Duran who was used to the faster smaller fighters so Leonard's speed did not bother him as much as some think it did Duran was a mean SOB and a very good fighter IMO that Duran imposes his will no matter what Leonard showed up.

 

Duran deserves all the credit he gets for his performance in the first Leonard fight. He was clearly in the best physical condition of his career that night and was completely ready for Leonard. He controlled the tempo from the start and it was Leonard's heart and natural skill that kept it competitive throughout because from a tactical standpoint, he was outfought.

It was truly one of the all-time great performances and the best of Duran's career. If he had treated his training as seriously in every fight as in that fight, we might be discussing whether Duran would have beaten Leonard in the rematch rather than the other way round.

Unfortunately, Duran came in out of shape for the second fight and Leonard was able to execute his stick and move strategy because he'd won the fight-before-the-fight by getting the rematch to take place so soon after the original. It was a calculated move that paid off for Leonard. The Duran from the Montreal fight might have even beaten the Leonard of the second fight but both bouts were won before the fights actually started by the guy who managed to impose his tactical game on the other. The fights were simply realisations of those tactical victories.

 

Tho i don't fully align with some of your views i think we can all appreciate Duran's win over SRL is one of the greatest in boxing history. It doesn't matter where you sit on whether Leonard may have won trying to move or not. It was a great fight between two great fighters and boxing is so much the better for it. As you said it was a fight in which the loser actually enhanced his reputation, as well as the winner of course. Two truly amazing fighters.