Does Jeffries belong in the top 30 of all time?

You keep referring to Fitzsimmons as "a natural middleweight."

When is the last time that he veritably made the middleweight limit?

Furthermore, if he was a natural middleweight, why didn't he just go back to milking the middleweight title, after Jeffries took the heavyweight title from him?

He was quick enough to go after the light heavyweight title, after it was created, even though it was worth even less than the middleweight title financially!

 

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It is relevant when people are inferring that Corbett's performance 38 months previous was reason for the rematch.

 

The timeline:

14/01/1891 Fitzsimmons wins the middleweight tile.

26/09/1894 Fitzsimmons last defense of his middleweight tile (last time he is forced to prove his weight).

17/03/1897 Fitzsimmons wins the heavyweight title from Jim Corbett.

17/06/1899 Jeffries wins the title from Fitzsimmons, five years after he last had to make the middleweight limit!

 

Yep you are right I meant a few years however Fitz did say he was still a middleweight when he beat Corbett.....besides all that he was a natural middleweight and not a natural heavyweight by anyones standards

That does not change my opinion of his motivation I have seen it over and over in fighters when I was a fighter and as a trainer they get tired of the strict diet

 

I can give you a shed load of info on this issue.

Before I do so, would I be looking it up to any purpose?

 

Here is a quote from a thread you started...ironically enough it is Tunney I had quoted as well on what Fitz stated about being heavyweight champion as a middleweight

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Gene Tunney wrote, (1940), that Fitz always considered himself a middleweight, “Fitz, incidentally, was funny about his weight, for, after defeating Corbett, while alone in a Turkish bath with Jim Coffroth, he kept repeating, 'eavyweight champion of the world--and I’m only a bleeding middleweight.”

While I have no doubt his vigor and durability would allow him to survive any middleweight’s punch, against the bigger and more modern heavyweights one has to question Nat Fleischer’s 1958 # 3 ranking at heavyweight for Fitzsimmons.

Consider that James Corbett, a small heavyweight who was not known for his power, bloodied Fitz’s lip with a sturdy left jab and floored the middleweight champion in the 6th round. If Corbett’s jab could tear up Fitz what would Joe Louis jab and right hand do? Or Muhammad Ali?

Fitz was down against Joe Choyinski, a light-heavyweight, in their draw fight. The June 30, 1894 Police Gazette reported, “Fitzsimmons finally tried for the wind and received a straight jab in the face. He came in again and was caught over the left eye so hard his that his head flew back. Keeping after Choyinski he let go for the wind. Choyinski shot his right across him full on the neck. Down he went like a falling chimney…the referee began to count but before he cried out “ten” Fitzsimmons was up. Fitzsimmons was up smiling like a sick man trying to make someone believe he feels better than he really does. He staggered about the ring and Choyinski went after him hard and furious. He could not however, get his right in for a knockout.”

Choynski was a great light-heavyweight hitter, but he was still only a light-heavyweight. Fitz was badly staggered, careening around the ring, and barely beat a ten count. He came back to put Choynski down as well, but what if it had been a great heavyweight finisher like Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, or Mike Tyson instead of Joe Choysnki?

In describing Jim Jeffries title winning effort against Fitzsimmons the National Police Gazette wrote on July 1, 1899 “Jeffries was as firm and steady as the proverbial rock, fighting a carefully planned battle. He had demonstrated his ability to hit the champion and likewise demonstrated he had nothing to fear from the latter’s punches.”

Jeffries, a modern sized heavyweight, had little trouble in breaking down the smaller Fitzsimmons and knocking him out in their first fight. In the rematch, it has been contended that Fitzsimmons had loaded gloves (although this has never been proven) and he gave Big Jeff quite a beating, but a single blow from the heavyweight champion eventually knocked him out.

Bob Fitzsimmons has been described as a physical oddity, a middleweight puncher who destroyed heavyweights. He definitely had a heavyweight’s offensive prowess and could dish out punishment with the best of them, but his small frame, and fact that he was hurt by small heavyweights and light-heavyweights and was easily knocked out by a big heavyweight, means that he would be a vast underdog against any of the all time big men.

As a middleweight Fitzsimmons was nearly unbeatable. He was without challenge the hardest punching middleweight of all time. He was a highly accurate place puncher and a master at setting up knockout blows. Perhaps historian and writer Edgar Lee Masters said it best, "For courage, for power, for skill, for fighting will, there is nothing on record that holds a candle to Fitz." At 160 pounds Fitz’s incredible gift of amazing power combined with his cleverness, ring experience and proven success against much larger opponents demonstrates that he should be rated among the elite of the greatest middleweight of all time.

Nat Fleischer as mentioned rated Fitzsimmons # 3 at heavyweight. Charley Rose rated him # 1 at light-heavyweight. Historian Tracy Callis also rates him # 1 at middleweight. Fitz was a true middlweight for most of his career. Cox's Corner rates him # 2 all time in the middleweight division.

 

If Tunney had said that Fitzsimmons weighed 200lbs of pure muscle, then you would be the first to say that he was not around at the time!

Your choice is simple.

Do you want to be the case for the prosecution against Jeffries?

Or:

Do you want to dig up as much evidence as possible, whatever direction it points in?

Clue, the latte approach is more fun!

 

I was weaned on articles like these as well.

They were a very good start, but then I learned that I had to look at the original evidence.

There is no shame in being wrong in this game, because the people who look at the original source material, always get a few surprises!

 

Wait hold on pictures makes it clear he was not as big as the 185lb Corbett nor 205-215lb Jeffries.....just like the link in which I posted that showed how little Tom Sharkey really was so either Greb was 5'11" and Sharkey 5'8" or Greb is 5'8" which would make Sharkey 5'5"-6" either way you care to believe in what the truth of his height was but Greb is clearly taller by inches since they are standing side by side in heeled dress shoes though both are listed at 5'8"......how can we believe that anything about Fitz is accurate?

If Fitz is saying he was never more than a middleweight and you are saying it isn't true then what evidence can you provide that is not in question because it sounds as if what you are saying is either Tunney is gullible or a liar or that Fitz is a embellisher and not to be trusted.

I have got to know how you know he was not a natural middleweight? I am comfortable knowing he was.....he was the middleweight champion and defended it as an adult....he was a natural middleweight....I guess much like your beloved Fleischer you would have to have been a fighter to understand why he would have not wanted to stay on a diet that would keep him at that weight...gaining a few lbs makes him no more a legit heavyweight than RJJ or Toney

 

It come s down to this:

Are you trying to trash Jeffries here , or are you genuinely interested in the truth?

If the former is the case, then get on with it, and I will continue to point out the flaws in your logic.

If the latter is the case, then i will look up information for you, and give you the best answer I can!

 

They could be one and the same.

Your "trashing" could be a mere correction.

 

Here is the deal if you are willing to admit Jeffries had every physical advantage then we can talk about where he really fits because as of now there is no logic to your loyalty to his legend.....furthermore you keep trying to prove something using modern logic and applying it to turn of the century political and racial climates. If you are going to argue that Fitz was a credible heavyweight when he never even weighed at the LtHeavyweight limit then we have no common ground no heavyweight ever got credit as an ATG beating a former middleweight champion no heavyweight was ever bestowed the greatness mantle beating a man they outweighed by 35 lbs who had been retired and has a questionable 1-4-1 record in the previous 3....even Tunney admits though he came up in weight says he did not beat the true Dempsey....Lewis did not beat the true Tyson....and no one thinks the Louis who fought Marciano was the same as prime....nor do they honestly say Ali, Holmes or Tyson were worthy of their shots and certainly not if they were smaller men subject to permanent damage. But you think Fitz and Corbett were not only worthy but the fights were fair sporting events..,.like I said without extensive experience in the sport you have no idea how ridiculous those fights were and worse that no 220lb man should be considered an ATG based off those fights.....no I would like to know the posters on this board are sane before I capitulate

 

It should be noted that Fitz won the middleweight title from Jack Dempsey when the limit was 154lbs exercising his prerogative as champion he raised the limit to 158lbs. Fitzsimmons was inside 158lbs when he defended his title against Dan Creedon in Sept 1894.