If Patterson had faced Cleveland Williams instead of Liston?

"but does anyone truly think Machen stops Floyd in the late fifties?"

It is certainly possible. Machen was coming back from a complete mental collapse. Who really knows how much he had gone back? His five comeback fights prior to Patterson were against second-rate opponents. He then fought Patterson, Terrell, Elmer Rush, Mildenberger, and Ramos back to back and didn't beat any of them, only being able to draw against Rush. My opinion was this wasn't at all the pre-breakdown Machen.

 

Easy. He was way more susceptible to taking punishment. I'm not even going to debate that being in shape will allow a fighter able to be more successful defensively.

Check out the first Ali fight, Ali paws at Liston with his jab (mainly because he doesn't want to get anywhere near Liston's range) and Liston is successful in slipping pretty much every one but every time Ali opens up on him he shells up and takes them all. That's bad defense, it wasn't complex at all and very straightforward.

You're framing my argument as something it isn't. I am not saying that "A fighter has bad defense if they get their nose broken, fighter x got his nose broken therefore fighter x has bad defense."

 

I'm saying Liston was not easy to hit and comparing a past prime, complacent version of him, fighting the consensus greatest at the weight is not a valid comparison.You need to watch his early fights.

 

Williams likely would get a knock down and make a good fight of it but I think Patterson likely would pull it out.

 

I was taking one of his better defensive performances and using it as the measuring stick but if you want to use his other ones like against Cleveland Williams where he looks worse then go right ahead.

 

This has been some good posts concerning Williams' shortcomings. What about Floyd?

He is an interesting case in boxing history. Patterson was ranked in the top ten at light-heavy and heavyweight from 1953 to 1972 in eighteen out of those twenty years. So for being rated over a long period he ranks up there with Moore, Robinson, Ali, and Louis, but those guys fought tons of top men. Looking at Floyd's resume, one notes the relatively few good men he beat for someone who was up there so long.

In 1955, he was the #1 light-heavy contender. In 1956 he jumped into an elimination bout with Hurricane Jackson, the winner to fight for the heavy title. How many rated men had Patterson beaten to this point. Willie Troy, Dave Whitfield, and Jimmy Slade. Troy and Whitfield were not heavies. Slade has to be his top victim. Talk about getting to the top without being all that tested. In fairness to him, his next three fights were the biggies against Jackson and Moore which made him champ. At this point he fought Rademacher, Harris, and London, nothing much there. Johansson was top rated, but blew Patterson out, but he got him in the returns. Then McNeeley.

To the point when he fought Jackson, the heaviest man Patterson had fought was Jimmy Walls at 192. Jackson weighed about 193. So Patterson got to be champion w/o ever facing a 200 lb. man. Rademacher was a 202 lb. amateur. London went 206. And Johansson went 206 in the third fight, but was flabby at that weight.

Liston was a step up in size, and Williams would have been also. Considering what happened against Liston, I think Williams would have had a helluva shot, despite my agreeing with what his critics have posted about him on this thread.

 

No, I don't want to pursue this really.

 

Alright, I agree to drop it then.

 

Doubt if Cleve would have turned up to face the far more skilful champion, as another "message" from beyond would reach him, as it did when he pulled out against the less than formidable, D..k Richardson, in 1958!

 

Patterson with his speed could pull it off. He'd have to be careful, but he could do it. And Patterson could crack, too.

 

Even Lennox Lewis and Anthony Joshua would run from D.K. Richardson.....

 

Yeah old Dick who fouled out against him to save himself from a beating!lol

 

Kinda like when Slim Pickens rides the A-Bomb down in Dr. Strangelove....Major Kong knew his decision (i.e. "comments") wouldn't be fully appreciated by the General Public.

 

You have to give Williams a shot due to his size and power. Both may have had similar durability. This fight comes down to who gets their firstest with the mostest.